Reimagining A More Sustainable Music Industry with Barbra Lica

RFU24 - Barbra Lica
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[00:00:00] Rosalyn: Hello, and welcome to season two of ReFolkUs, where we talk to artists and music industry professionals about building sustainable careers as creative workers with a focus on folk. I'm your host, Rosalyn Dennett. Our guest today is Barbara Lica. [00:00:30] She's a Juno nominated singer songwriter, producer, and a seasoned act on the North American club and festival circuits. She has performed everywhere from New York City's legendary Birdland to Toronto's Kerner Hall, headlining festivals around the world including Festival International de Jazz de Montreal, Tokyo International Jazz Festival, Proto Prince International Jazz Festival And is open for giants like Christian McBride, Pat Metheny, and Terrence Blanchard. Her 2018 album, You're Fine, marked the first introduction of folk and Americana elements to her repertoire and [00:01:00] amassed over 6 million streams to date on Spotify. Recently, her first self produced EP, Impostor Syndrome, garnered her two 2024 Canadian Folk Music Award nominations in the category of Single of the Year and Solo Artist of the Year.

[00:01:13] Rosalyn: At the 2023 Folk Music Ontario Conference, the album single The Ghost of Me took home the 2023 Ontario Folk Music Award CMRRA Song of the Year prize. Here's our conversation with Barbara Lica. [00:01:30] Hi, Barbra, welcome to the show.

[00:01:34] Barbra: Thanks for having me.

[00:01:35] Rosalyn: Thank you so much for being here. So the last time I saw you, you were holding a brand new award. You were just received for the CMRRA Song of the Year at the Ontario Folk Music awards for your song The Ghost of Me and the opening to your acceptance speech, uh, was that you were a little surprised about that.

[00:01:55] Rosalyn: Why were you surprise+d?

[00:01:57] Barbra: I think that no part of me, like no cell in [00:02:00] my body thought there was any chance that I would win a trophy of any kind. I mean, I literally have a song that I wrote called Trophy. that I wrote after making a joke that I never win anything.

[00:02:13] Barbra: and then this ended up happening. So I don't know what it is.

[00:02:16] Barbra: I don't know if it's my Eastern Europeanness or if it's the fact that, you know, I've been doing jazz for so long. I mean, I feel like I've been doing folk for a long time now too, but it's sort of hard to get into the club. And I feel like, [00:02:30] you know, Joel Elliott's always. It's telling people you're folk enough, but I don't think I really internalized that.

[00:02:36] Barbra: So, so I didn't think I was folk enough and it was cool when I won because now I'm officially folk enough, right? If you win a folk award, you're folk enough.

[00:02:44] Rosalyn: Can you tell us a little bit about that song, and what it meant to you?

[00:02:48] Barbra: I was like in the absolute pits of my depression. I just, I was just ready to throw in the towel. I said, you know, that's it. And I have so many friends in the music industry that I was like, [00:03:00] you know, I wish you all the best. But I'm out, you know, I'll just be cheering you on from the sidelines.

[00:03:06] Barbra: So I feel like I couldn't really process the feeling until it existed as a song. And my friend, Danielle Knibby, who's won, I think she won the Colleen Peterson award before. She's one of my closest friends and she came over and helped me kind of get this out of my system when we wrote this song together and, yeah, it's weird because now it's been a while and I haven't quit yet. But, uh, [00:03:30] I feel like you almost have to, you have to write the song so that you can Really finish figuring out what you're feeling.

[00:03:37] Rosalyn: Did you feel then once the song had been created like, you're like, I did it. I figured it out. I put it into the song and now I'm, I'm able to move through that, that feeling.

[00:03:45] Barbra: Well, I mean, after you write the song, then all of a sudden you have this renewed feeling of wanting to perform that song and wanting to see if anybody else feels that way too. And I think before that I sort of [00:04:00] focused on a lot more joyful topics and lovey dovey things and lighter things.

[00:04:05] Barbra: And so I think that being on the cusp of wanting to quit even gave me the courage to say, well. What's the worst that happens? Nobody likes it and I quit. So I just put it out and had that renewed motivation to just get some stuff out and get some real feelings out and deal with wanting to quit and being sad and being upset and being insecure by putting out music that is about [00:04:30] that.

[00:04:30] Rosalyn: What's the reaction like then been from, from audiences when they hear the song?

[00:04:36] Barbra: People really like when we, when we do it after, you know, at concerts, people get really quiet or sometimes they'll say things like, wow, which is really strange. So, no matter how many times we perform it, I always feel nervous to perform it. Like, oh, this will be a real bummer. and so it's always kind of amazing how, people relate to it, you know, people in all fields, cause anybody sort of doing the day to day hustle, no matter [00:05:00] what it is, whether it's a job or in family, I feel like it's just a good song for tired people who are at their wits end, you know?

[00:05:07] Rosalyn: Do you draw energy from that then? you know, I know you said like, oh, this will be a, bummer, but you've made it to that other side in the sense that you're, you're performing it now and you're, you're on the stages, you're winning awards, you're doing tours, you obviously chose to, hop back into it.

[00:05:22] Rosalyn: Does that song feel kind of empowering?
[00:05:24] Barbra: I mean, just like, it's, it's kind of been exciting to [00:05:30] see that you can change gears and still connect with people you know I used to joke like I'm not Barbara Lica, everybody calls me Barbie in real life like everybody. So I'm always like Barbara Lica is kind of like an exaggerated version of me on my best day.

[00:05:44] Rosalyn: Mm.

[00:05:45] Barbra: You know, and it's been exciting to sort of take to this place where, like, I actually am this person and I really am particularly real on stage and I can really be me and I can really work through my issues and I can really talk about things and I don't have to sort [00:06:00] of summon up a smile or summon up whatever.

[00:06:03] Barbra: I remember some of the guys in my band telling me that, who'd they go see? Was it Rose Cousins?

[00:06:09] Rosalyn: Mm hmm.

[00:06:10] Barbra: And then she had done a performance where she said, look, today's, uh, like a bad day for me. It's going to be a depressing set. And she didn't feel compelled to do that thing I've done for years, where it's like, well, the set has to be constructed in such a way.

[00:06:24] Barbra: You know, maybe you start high energy and then you go here. And then, you know, she just did the set she [00:06:30] felt. and I love that, you know, I love just doing the set you feel. every show of mine, every set list is different. Even when we were at Folk Music Ontario, the thing you're supposed to do at Folk Music Ontario is you're supposed to feature your best stuff that you can do confidently that fits in that timeframe.

[00:06:46] Barbra: And on one of my showcases, I just did a brand new song that we've never done as a band together, because, you know, if you're not going to make yourself feel something and be excited and you're not going to enjoy anything, then you're just giving [00:07:00] everything away. So. Yeah, it was kind of, I don't even know how it went.

[00:07:04] Barbra: I don't care. It was a good time.

[00:07:05] Rosalyn: That takes some courage and sometimes that really pays off, right? Because if you're being vulnerable with the audience by maybe doing something a little bit out of your comfort zone, the audience wants to take that risk with you, right?

[00:07:16] Barbra: Yeah, and also like you could do everything perfectly every time and do all the things you think you're supposed to do and be Frustrated that it doesn't work out at least if you're having a good time and doing what you want you know, it's a win win no matter [00:07:30] what and I had this experience actually back in April talking about nightmare situation like the award where I didn't have the speech prepared, but this was worse where I was in North Carolina and we had just done the set, the sound check.

[00:07:43] Barbra: And then I totally lost my voice.

[00:07:45] Barbra: I knew it was kind of on the edge, but I think all that was left was maybe three notes. And we still had to do two shows, two sets and complete, like complete total laryngitis just gone. So I ended up having to do two shows where [00:08:00] I improvised new melodies to every song on the spot, two, three notes, like using just a few notes.

[00:08:06] Barbra: And it was the most horrifying, musical situation of my life.

[00:08:11] Rosalyn: Wow

[00:08:12] Barbra: And I sort of just, I think something twisted in my brain that day too, where it was just like, we've done the worst case scenario. We've seen what happens and it was fine.

[00:08:22] Barbra: Everything is always fine. Just have a good time, have fun.

[00:08:27] Barbra: Like we're so ready, I think in music [00:08:30] to sacrifice our experience, in pursuit of a positive experience for others.

[00:08:37] Rosalyn: That's so interesting. When I look back to times that I've pushed myself to perform sick, and I'm not saying this in a way to advocate for people doing that, like care of yourself, do what you need to do. but I relate to that experience in that sometimes I think of times where I've performed like when I don't feel my best, but that's like my new challenge, you know, is like, you adapt and figure out a way to make it possible and sometimes it's like that extra [00:09:00] challenge.

[00:09:00] Barbra: I would never advocate for either, but I was there, like, I bought the flights for a five piece band, like, paid for the visa. I really needed to get paid this wasn't like a, this was like a financial situation where it had to happen. And then the lights went down.

[00:09:14] Barbra: It's like, okay, this is happening. It didn't even feel real. It was surreal.

[00:09:17] Rosalyn: But props to your, also your, uh, improvisational ability to make everything into, like, the One Note Samba you know?

[00:09:25] Barbra: That's what it was. kind of like the three note samba, but, uh, you know, we [00:09:30] changed the, everything changed. Like I was counting in every tune, just changing keys of everything on the spot, and the band was just kind of watching intently. I feel like we never had to listen to each other that much, because we're a band that's rehearsed and played together for, what, 10 years, and all of a sudden it's like...Okay, what's happening? Nothing's going to be clean tonight.

[00:09:50] Rosalyn: Has it been the same group, pretty much, for ten years?

[00:09:53] Barbra: Uh, yeah, I mean, the bassist has switched out part way through, but even then, like the bassist who plays with us now [00:10:00] for the past six years he's my like old university bass friend playing buddy.

[00:10:05] Rosalyn: It's great. How do you, kind of maintain that relationship, then, with your bandmates. Is that like a conscious relationship?

[00:10:14] Barbra: Yeah. I mean, I think that the secret to these things for me is that no matter how close we become as friends, you know, like we message each other almost every day and you know, we have a great time getting along. We hang out after gigs. And [00:10:30] I think no matter what happens as a band leader, I have to never take advantage of them.

[00:10:37] Barbra: I think it's very easy to say, well, we're friends. Can you do this favor? No matter what it is, I respect them as professional, working musicians, and they know that they're going to get, you know, a union fee. If somebody has to struggle and it's, it's my gig and I'm doing these things, if somebody has to lose money, it's going to be me.

[00:10:55] Barbra: I'm not going to divide it amongst them. And I always pay them for everything. And I [00:11:00] think if you keep that professionalism where it's like, no matter how much we become friends, that's not going to cost you. I'm not going to blur the lines. I think that's kept us getting along all these years.

[00:11:11] Barbra: Because they know now after 10 years, I'm always going to, respect them professionally.

[00:11:17] Rosalyn: I, I feel like that's a part of how, I first, came to know you too was, was, through your work, or maybe it wasn't even work, just like advocacy that you've done, about like musicians rights and, [00:11:30] union related kind of work stuff. is that something you've always been passionate about?

[00:11:35] Barbra: Yeah. I mean, I, I really, I really believe in the value of music and the value that musicians bring. And I think you know, the most powerful thing that the industry can do to musicians is convince them that they have no value. And people always say that, you know, there's no money in music. There is money in music, but there's a lot of gatekeepers and people, interrupting the downward flow of that money.

[00:11:59] Barbra: and [00:12:00] Musicians are always quick to play for free or do favors. And I kind of want to be. You know, I want to be an example of the world I believe in. Like it would be really great if I could get my guys to just come and do a thing for free for me. That'd be really great for me. And a lot of the time I can't afford it, but it doesn't matter because if I want to service, I have to pay for it.

[00:12:22] Barbra: And I just try to the best of my ability to be fair and also to advocate for fair [00:12:30] circumstances. Like in my orchestra, I hired somebody so that if somebody had an issue, they could go to somebody else and anonymously put in a grievances or, or whatever that somebody could fight me.

[00:12:42] Barbra: I remember we're in the middle of a sound check right outside Ottawa, actually, and the steward, he started arguing with me that my sound check was going too long, uh, and that it was going to run into their dinner time, you know, and it was funny because..like I loved it. It was such a delicious moment because on one hand, I was like, no, I really want to sound check this, I really want to get it right. But then I was so happy that somebody was there saying, you can't do that. These guys need to have their dinner.

[00:13:17] Barbra: You know, and I think that's, that's really important to have, like, it's really important to advocate for them to have that calm time, them to have their meal, them to have, you know, it's, it's really important to be treated fairly.

[00:13:30] Rosalyn: Yeah. Otherwise, you know, you don't want them going into the gig angry. That's, that's not good for anyone.

[00:13:35] Barbra: And I remember, like, this tour was apologizing to me after, it's like, sorry Barbie that, like, I had to fight back there. I'm like, no man, like, that's exactly, that's exactly what you're there for. Like, that's a battle I was supposed to lose. It's great.

[00:13:48] Rosalyn: Yeah. Oh my gosh, I wish that that existed in every band because then also you don't have that resentment, right? Like there isn't that resentment towards the individual musician who's speaking up for themselves like, oh, you're not a team player cause [00:14:00] you're. Trying to duck out, early to fulfill your needs, you know,

[00:14:03] Barbra: Exactly. Like your needs matter. And I think as musicians are so quick to say like, well, I'll just take one for the team or I'll be a team player, this or that, but it's still a workplace and you still have needs and you're still human and you're still important and you still offer a service, uh, as a sideman, you know, your leader owes you that as a leader, the presenter owes you that, it's crazy how much I run into even presenters that are fighting you over whether or [00:14:30] not they give you dinner in a room.

[00:14:31] Barbra: Like, if my friend came over from Vancouver, I don't even know where I'd put them. I'd give them my room and offer them dinner. Like, it's just basic hospitality and, and manners. Um, and I really... I really believe that musicians need to stand together and demand that they deserve things. We deserve things.

[00:14:53] Barbra: I'm not saying you have to join the union, but I believe in a unified mentality, you know? I[00:15:00]

[00:15:00] Rosalyn: When we're just taking up for each other too, and when there's that kind of solidarity, stuff can happen, you know, change can actually be made, I think,

[00:15:10] Barbra: I mean, look at the Hollywood writer's strike. I would love it if musicians did that, but, but they're scared. People are scared.

[00:15:16] Barbra: Nobody wants to be sort of the poster child of standing up and complaining and being difficult. And, maybe as the ghost of me, uh, you know, I just don't, I'm just not scared and I just. I just don't [00:15:30] care. Like, what is it we're all protecting? What are we fighting for? And I, and I feel for the presenters too, because I think there's less money than there's ever been in the arts and you see festivals falling like flies and, you know, they don't necessarily have the money to pay enough or to do enough. But I also think on the other side of artists, we shouldn't be accepting low fees. We shouldn't be accepting fees where we lose money, where it pays less than the flight.

[00:15:55] Barbra: We're depending on granting systems, which slowly, slowly have less money to, I think the [00:16:00] Factor success rate last, uh, session was 8 percent or something.

[00:16:04] Barbra: I wasn't part of it, but I saw it go out and I was And I know Canadian Heritage, uh, was speaking a little bit about that at Folk Music Ontario, about how artists are going to be needing to find other methods of funding. and I do believe that maybe some of the events should shrink in scope and focus on whatever you present is, is paid and accommodated fairly.

[00:16:26] Rosalyn: Such an interesting point of conversation because it is [00:16:30] scary when you see like the overall funding level, like just kind of across the board drop and then it, it can kind of send people in this scarcity kind of mentality. I think that's there anyways, kind of that competitiveness organizations, industry, companies, musicians, you know, that kind of exists throughout each of those levels. But there, there has to be some sort of, there's like a, a breaking point or some sort of like something has to change and when we get to a little point [00:17:00] where, where the industry is getting really stressed, you know, usually there's something like bizarrely catastrophic that, you know, it's a pandemic now we have to figure something new out.

[00:17:08] Rosalyn: There's streaming, we have to figure something new out, you know, and, if live music is getting, it's already been kind of stressed to the max with the pandemic and, and now we're, we're finding that it's still feeling that stress. So there's gotta be like, I don't know.

[00:17:22] Rosalyn: Can you fix the music industry Barbara!? What do you suggest? Do you have thoughts on any ways that we can make things more [00:17:30] sustainable?

[00:17:30] Barbra: Oh, man. I mean, it's, it's, it's hard, right? It's little things here and there. I mean, I'm always saying that on the granting level, I think that public funding to presenters should come with the caveat that there are minimums on what the actual hired artists are spent.

[00:17:47] Barbra: I've been on panels where I've seen that there is some loose inquiry on like, how are you basing your funding, your pay structures, but I don't know how seriously that quick question is taken [00:18:00] or how much it's lined up with the budgets to see what is the actual, what are the actual numbers here.

[00:18:05] Barbra: And especially like you have a lot of the granting programs saying, well, you have to prioritize marginalized artists, which is great, but how is that money lining up with those artists? Like, are you just hiring certain artists so that you could put them in the byline?

[00:18:20] Barbra: Or are you actually both paying those artists and creating a meaningful platform?

[00:18:27] Rosalyn: Yeah, that's uh, there was an [00:18:30] artist who I absolutely love. I don't want to say who it is because I don't know if they're still planning to do this or not but do a study of basically they were headlining festivals playing on the main stage of festivals as a, as a solo, female artist.

[00:18:47] Rosalyn: And you know, they started asking male counterparts who were doing the same thing. So what do you, what are you getting paid for this gig? And found out that, you know. Many, many times, male counterparts who were even like not playing [00:19:00] as prestigious of a slot on the main stage were getting paid way more.

[00:19:03] Rosalyn: So she wanted to start, I think she called it, ‘I'll show you mine if you show me yours’, which is cheeky, but just like a way either to get that information through the festivals or through the musicians to make sure that people were being paid fairly that there wasn't like a huge, wage gap, a gender gap there.

[00:19:18] Barbra: I mean, that's one thing that I actually appreciate too about Folk Music Ontario is that I feel like there was a lot of effort. First of all, anything I was asked to do in Folk Music Ontario as part of the Developing Artists [00:19:30] Program was paid. And there was also, I felt, there was also a lot of effort, I think, to bring value to artists. A lot of it is very artist centric. the panels that were selected, the things, you know, artists were, were paying registration fees, but I feel like there was a value offered. Whereas a lot of showcase conferences are primarily geared towards presenters and people on the industry side.

[00:19:55] Barbra: And if anything, artist showcases are the draw, but those artists are still [00:20:00] asked to pay registration fees. I just feel like we should be demanding a little bit more. There should be a minimum. And I think that if events, whether it's festivals or conferences, can't offer that, they should shrink.

[00:20:13] Barbra: You know, everybody wants to have a big, huge event. We want to go over three days or go over a weekend, maybe make it one day, but pay properly.

[00:20:22] Barbra: Maybe it's smaller, but it's really, there's no dark side to it.

[00:20:29] Rosalyn: Yeah. [00:20:30] I mean, that would be my solution in my mind. That's like the, the thing that makes the most sense to me is like, not that we should have less festivals or less. labels or less conferences, but more and smaller, you know, like let them be like a reasonable, sustainable size.

[00:20:49] Rosalyn: So you don't feel like you have to pay a headliner 100, 000 to come play your festival. Otherwise we won't get 70, 000 people over the weekend. Like what if your goal is instead like 20, 000 [00:21:00] people and you, pay everybody like a reasonable fair wage without, you know, having to rely on that giant draw that takes up the majority of the artistic budget.

[00:21:09] Barbra: And also building, you know, building real platforms for people in the sense that if you are paying that hundred thousand dollar headliner, have them actually collaborate with local artists or emerging artists, like have them create something that's unique to your festival. And that ends up building real value for those other artists,

[00:21:27] Rosalyn: That's an amazing idea.

[00:21:28] Barbra: Like something a little [00:21:30] bit more which I think that some folk festivals do to a degree where they have writers in the round or something..

[00:21:36] Rosalyn: Even the idea of the festival workshop is, in my mind, one of the most effective, and oh gosh, I mean, I, I can't, I can go on about the Canadian Festival, like, workshop stages and stuff. I think it's so brilliant, because yeah, you get to say, like, I played on the same stages Valerie June…just like ridiculous opportunities for artists to get to play with some of their heroes and like get opportunity to and then you also once you start playing with them now you have Had a conversation so like now on stage, even if that's the first time I've ever met You know, after the I'm like chatting with Valerie and I'm like, that was so fun, that was so great.

[00:22:18] Rosalyn: Like, yeah, next time you come through Winnipeg, let's, let's hang. And you know, like now I've built a relationship with, with somebody that is like really influential and, and that I respect and it's, it's very cool, you know, [00:22:30] of value.

[00:22:31] Barbra: A commissions, like you could have artists, big artists come in and do commissions where they collaborate artistically with other artists and, but I mean, aside from all of that, that like all those ideas are sort of ideas I've had for a long time within the scope of the traditional artist hustle, which is, you know, go to conferences, showcase, try to get tours, apply for the crayons, go on the tours, and I've always, you know, asked for mentorship.

[00:22:58] Barbra: I'm always big on asking like, what do [00:23:00] think? What do you think? What do you think? How can we make this lucrative? How can we, and I feel like the most interesting advice I got very recently was from a friend who works in the commercial field, who sort of looking at, you know, looking a lot of what I do, from a strictly like kind of business standpoint and looking through at it said like, well, none of this.

[00:23:19] Barbra: Makes sense. And he said, you know, if you do the same thing, and I don't think he meant for this line to be as impactful as it, as it was, but it's been breaking my brain. Like, [00:23:30] if you do the same thing as everybody else, how do you expect to stand out? You know, and that's what we're doing. Like, we all have this expectation that we'll always be visible.

[00:23:41] Barbra: And we always need to tour so that we'll be visible. And we need to go to the conferences, and we need to post all the time. We need to do these things. and then I'm looking at somebody like, say, Sia Gray, who barely ever posts anything except for maybe the odd, uh, she's really into pole dancing.

[00:23:56] Barbra: Like, very, very little posting, can't really tell where [00:24:00] she's touring or what's happening, but she's really focusing on just making great content, musical content or video content. Like, what if we, and I'm just hypothesizing here because I think this is the way I want to go.

[00:24:12] Barbra: What if we take a step back, stop being in the rat race or the hustle and this high pressure thing that we feel like we need to do. Again, sacrificing the self for what we believe the audience needs or however we feel we [00:24:30] need to stay relevant and just focus on making stuff like good stuff that speaks to you, that you like making and just keep making stuff.

[00:24:40] Barbra: And I see like in the comedy world, there's Netflix specials from comedians who haven't really toured at all that have entirely built. Just online comedy specials that have moved directly from that to selling out clubs in New York. You know, if you just take a step back and get away from that [00:25:00] pressure to do what you think you have to do and what you're supposed to do and just make good content.

[00:25:06] Barbra: I mean, think about it like a factor grant is what 10, 000 for just the recording component. And in order to get that 10,000 you need to spend 13,000. So it's 3,000 out of pocket plus all the time and time is money because it. Our time has value all the time. You spent building that grant all the time you're going to spend doing the final reports and the two step audits [00:25:30] and the essays you're going to write for every component to get every piece of support material, which will also be 75 percent funded, forget all that time.

[00:25:40] Barbra: Take those thousands of dollars. And make some music.

[00:25:44] Rosalyn: I 100 percent agree with what you said and I, I just think it can be personalized for every single person in a completely different way. You know, it's like auditing what makes you happy and sparks creativity and like where you [00:26:00] sit in the artistic process, because somebody might also have the exact opposite. speaking for myself here. I have like a, you know, when I think about it as with my artist hat on, I, I love playing. I love playing live. I love playing festivals. That's like, that's what gets me going, you know, some people are writing songs and you're like, are you really into writing songs or you just feel like you need to write songs?

[00:26:23] Rosalyn: Because I like, I've, I felt like that where there's like a pressure for me, that doesn't come naturally to write songs and then record my own [00:26:30] songs. But that means that like, maybe I don't have to do that. Maybe that side of it isn't the part that brings me joy and it's the live performance and that's where I can focus,

[00:26:38] Barbra: And there's such a stigma around finding conventional forms of funding. Like a part time or full time job. You know, that job you're getting probably ends up being less time out of your day than the, what I know for me for years has been like, what, 7am to 2am? You know, and weekends don't exist, and just [00:27:00] that constant hustle and you know, if you take a day off, you feel like you're being lazy that day.

[00:27:05] Barbra: It's a miserable feeling. Like what if we just have ways to fund specifically the one thing or the two things that bring us joy.

[00:27:16] Barbra: Joy is important. And if you retain joy, you're going to keep making stuff that you like that is sustainable. I think joy is what makes things sustainable. Like it's, it's [00:27:30] why no matter how, you know, not so my two year old is running around the place and doing things that normally I would have been sweating buckets.

[00:27:38] Barbra: Feels like the easiest thing in the world because I love him and I love his face. And so it's sustainable because there's joy.

[00:27:46] Rosalyn: Hmm.

[00:27:46] Barbra: You know, and I think we just, I think we just lose that. And I think if we prioritize that and we make stuff we're proud of, maybe it's a bit of a domino effect.

[00:27:56] Barbra: Maybe value comes from there.

[00:27:59] Barbra: I don't [00:28:00] know. I just feel like the industry and like all this sort of rhetoric we hear all the time, like, Oh, you know, if you're a musician, you got to wear every hat. You got to do this and that. And we just hear these things and we accept these things and there's a bit of a cult around it. Like, why does making music or art have to be anything but what you say it is? And so, like I personally, I love writing and I love recording and that's my happy place. And so I just kind of want to do that. And I want to figure out [00:28:30] ways to make that lucrative or else find other things that... Help fund that instead of sitting and writing essays and doing the thing and going through the cycle. It's exhausting and I'm ready to just break out of it.

[00:28:44] Rosalyn: Do you think that there's a way that... Like, collectively, we can do something, like, is it up to the individual or is it up to the collective to make a difference?

[00:28:55] Barbra: I mean, I think unfortunately There's so many things I'd love to change about the [00:29:00] industry But I do think that there's so much interference in that flow. There's so many gatekeepers That it is a little bit over broken and we don't necessarily have even the legal power. I love this utopian world where we all stand together and do things.

[00:29:15] Barbra: And I think that it's still important to fight every small battle. Like I know I have sometimes to my own detriment. But I think ultimately we all have to look within ourselves to say, you know, what do I have to [00:29:30] do to feel like I have value? You know, maybe you have to build that value system for yourself first and then go about enforcing it.

[00:29:38] Barbra: I don't know. It feels overwhelming to tackle the industry as a whole. Like you were talking about transparency before. I think transparency should be an absolute given. I think everybody should stop posturing. I feel like we, I tell anybody who asks me what my fees are. And I ask everybody their fees even if it makes them uncomfortable.

[00:30:16] Barbra: So it was like, that sounds all hunky dory, but my clients, you know, don't want people to know if they play somewhere for free.

[00:30:22] Barbra: And at that point, you know, like the conversation is over for me because it's like, Why are you giving your artist an unpaid gig? You [00:30:30] know, and why are we encouraging this system?

[00:30:32] Barbra: And why, why shouldn't that be told?

[00:30:34] Barbra: How do you convince all these artists to stand together and stop doing these things?

[00:30:38] Barbra: Like, unfortunately, this system is basically just moving towards a place where the only people who can afford to do it are either independently wealthy, or, you know, truly doing it on the side, like the age of, you know, the full time, middle class musician is dying. And, that top tier of musicians is part of an [00:31:00] industry.

[00:31:00] Barbra: That's probably taking the majority of the money.

[00:31:03] Rosalyn: I've been going into a lot of the schools and trying to do little workshops on DIY business and stuff and sort of trying to get at the younger generation of people, to sort of, you know, from the beginning as much as I can say, guys, get reasonable fees, value yourself, do this. But I think that more than anything we all just need to decide that we actually have value. If we didn't, why would anybody even want us [00:31:30] there?

[00:31:30] Rosalyn: Oh, exactly. Like somebody else is profiting off of that value. It's not that you don't have value. It's just that somebody else is profiting off of it

[00:31:36] Barbra: Oh yeah, I would love to have a strike where all music is just shut down for even one day. Like no cabs, no gyms, no anywhere. Just like seeing people exist with that silence.

[00:31:50] Barbra: Then tell us that we don't offer a real service. I mean, there's actually scientific studies saying that people work out better with music.

[00:31:59] Barbra: It's very strange that we've all been convinced we're not worth anything, which is a really great way to get us for cheap. It's, it's ingenious. Like part of me really respects like tip of the hat to you. I really respect that. That's a really long game that was played and it's really, it's really effective.

[00:32:17] Barbra: And you know, like my friend Joel always likes to say, like, no matter how crappy it gets, unfortunately, it's still the best job on the planet, you know, like we love it so much and we've let that turn it into a ridiculous [00:32:30] job. I mean, can you imagine any other job where somebody is like, all right, okay, we're gonna hire you, you can play my event, but instead of paying you, we're gonna give you this letter that says we intend to have you.

[00:32:44] Barbra: And you know what, you can take that letter, and you can write some essays to the government, and they'll possibly, maybe give you money, but we need to know by this day, because we're going to make our programs. So we really need to know by this [00:33:00] day and you might not get the money, but look you're going to have a great time.

[00:33:03] Barbra: Like, can you imagine any other job where they paid you in a letter for money? Maybe if you write an essay, it's so unethical and yet it's so like the number of excited musicians who are like, Barb, I got eight letters. It's like some kind of alternate universe where, I don't know, I just feel like I'm waking up from this stuff.

[00:33:26] Barbra: I'm like, what are we doing? I knew it was bad, but [00:33:30] then even like the things I didn't want to admit that I've been participating in for so long, you know, like, why am I asking for letters? How about just like a fee that would pay enough? any other job, even just that, where it's like, okay, hey, Roz, I'm going to pay you to come over to Vancouver Island and, you know, everybody uses plumber or whatever… fix my HVAC system. And I'm going to pay you enough to fix the HVAC system, [00:34:00] but you have to cover the flight and the hotel room.

[00:34:02] Rosalyn: Yeah, it's a bum deal. And I, and I think that, there's a difference between paying huge fees and like a living wage, you know, I think that there is like a living wage that is. reasonable if you're, a presenter or, you know, whatever thing it, if it's like, if there's a general, oh man, I'm getting real, commie now, but if there's like a baseline, I mean, I could get even more that, like, you know, what if the government [00:34:30] had like a minimum wage for artists?

[00:34:31] Barbra: That's where I think the union is useful. Like even if you don't join, there are guides to what, you know, look at your local and look at the, even if you're not in it, just email them, say, Hey, can I have your, and if you look in your local, like that's what they think you should get paid for however many hours.

[00:34:49] Rosalyn: That's what they think the minimum, should be.

[00:34:52] Barbra: Minimum. On top of that, like you need to be considering, yes, your travel, if your age is going to take anything, [00:35:00] you need to consider hospitality costs. If you're a leader, you're supposed to be getting double. There are guidelines to what your basic hospitality should be, how much each meal should cost if they're not providing it like there, you add all that stuff up. So, and that's the thing, like. You know, a lot of presenters will say, you know, we're paying people union.

[00:35:29] Barbra: Well, like, are you, [00:35:30] are you paying the leader double? Health and welfare? Are you playing travel stipends based on how far it is? Because there are guides to that. Like if something is outside of your region, you're supposed to be getting a travel stipend.

[00:35:44] Rosalyn: I think that health and welfare sometimes gets ignored, especially in Canada, because we're like, well, we have health care. It's like, no, but it's for health and welfare. Like like, we still have to go to the dentist and….

[00:35:59] Barbra: So true. And I'm [00:36:00] not even like, I'm, you know, I'm trying to pay fairly and I'm not giving my band enough to cover all of those. amounts. I'm doing my best, but it is just how, you know, over the years, the fee offers get lower and the grant asks have to be higher. And it's like, why, why am I doing this?

[00:36:20] Barbra: And then somebody is doing that and getting these offers or getting these letters. And you have other artists looking at them through Instagram being like, Oh, it's amazing. You're [00:36:30] touring, you're doing all this stuff. I'm sorry, but like, I've. gone and messaged a bunch of musicians who I consider much more successful than me.

[00:36:37] Barbra: And all of them will say, Oh yeah, when I tour, I lose money.

[00:36:41] Rosalyn: It boils down to sustainability, right? Because the system must be broken if you have a public that is willing to pay a ticket price or they're willing to, like, invest in music and that money isn't going to them either because I, I know that festivals and presenters are losing money too.

[00:37:03] Rosalyn: So if somehow presenters, they, they don't have enough money and the musicians don't have enough money, but we know people are willing to spend money, then like where is it going?

[00:37:11] Barbra: It goes to the middleman. Like I mean, most most major labels, their boilerplate, contract will be like 75 percent of your master. You know, like every manager takes 15 to 20%, every agent takes 15 to 20%, and a lot of them are very helpful. I don't wanna crap on, on, [00:37:30] you know, the entire thing, but, there's something to be said for DIY and retaining your rights and retaining everything if you can, and not necessarily looking at getting a label or getting a manager is a sign of success. And then we're like, well, you know, I can't manage all this workload and I can't.

[00:37:46] Barbra: And then there's that other line, like, well, when you get enough of a workload, that's when they'll come and help. You mean like that's when they'll come and exploit you? I feel like if we can scale our own businesses [00:38:00] down to what brings us the most joy and what's sustainable, put a value on that and hold onto it.

[00:38:06] Barbra: I mean, there's so many arguments on this. Like, would you rather have a hundred percent of nothing? But, but honestly I can't even say that without feeling like somebody's dad.

[00:38:19] Barbra: Like, it's a rough puzzle. And if somebody really wanted to create a coalition and do something and change something, like I'd be first there.

[00:38:28] Barbra: But I do [00:38:30] wonder if it starts at the level of public funding, if it even exists. In the way that we regulate the funding that's given to festivals and, and presenters. And, again, saying this with a full understanding of the festivals are struggling so much too. And I see that, but there has to be some kind of conversation about sustainability on both sides.

[00:38:51] Barbra: And, you know, maybe at some point I thought that maybe unionizing the corporate side of the business like the wedding industry and all these [00:39:00] things do have very healthy fees. You get a lot more freelance musicians thinking that way. I have many, many thoughts and feelings. But since I feel somehow powerless to change the industry at large, all I can do is prioritize my own experience and my own joy. And again, I think having a kid has really helped that because I know what joy looks and feels like for me. One of my favorite moments was when Cody Hutchinson, he's the [00:39:30] jazz YYC, festival AD. He was out in Europe at this conference there. And he was talking about how he had just debuted this Canadian orchestra project.

[00:39:42] Barbra: And it was a dream of his, like he'd always dreamed of having this orchestral project and, and it was so much work and he'd realized it. And then he goes home and there's this little girl jumping on him saying, can I show you the dance that I did that I learned? And he's like looking at his [00:40:00] daughter dancing and he's like.

[00:40:02] Barbra: Like, oh crap, like, is this, is this better?

[00:40:08] Barbra: You know? And sometimes like we need that perspective to say like, you know, joy does exist. And it's important. And if you've been chasing it in music and not finding it, you know, then you might be doing yourself a disservice and also you might be defining yourself too much, on the perspectives of this broken industry.

[00:40:29] Rosalyn: Yeah, I [00:40:30] think on one of the, first episodes we did of this show, I talked about, like maybe just like the other side of that, where, You know, I was going to a gig or coming home from a gig and then like immediately got thrown up on. I feeling like on top of the world and was like, yeah, I just did this big thing and like, I'm so, you know, and then yeah, I mean just like got a whole lot of barf thrown on for my child.

[00:41:04] Barbra: It's true. It's true.

[00:41:06] Rosalyn: Oh gosh, I love it. It's been so cool to get to chat with each other and I think your perspective's really, really, valuable and poignant and yeah, thank you for, for advocating - and it's just really important work and really important words that you shared.

[00:41:24] Rosalyn: Thank you.

[00:41:25] Barbra: Yeah, thanks for having me. I hope people feel hopeful [00:41:30] and not, uh, not depressed from what I've said.

[00:41:36] Rosalyn: Yeah. Do you have a parting word of, hope for, for the folks?

[00:41:40] Barbra: Yeah, I feel like, I feel like as an artist only you can decide. what happiness and sustainability within the music industry is. only you can decide, only you know, and it's important to listen to your voice and value your voice and value your work.

[00:41:58] Rosalyn: Beautiful. Before [00:42:00] we go though, can you tell us a little bit about some of the, some of the things you have coming up? I know you just released a Christmas, is it a Christmas single? Tell us about it.

[00:42:11] Barbra: It's called On Christmas Eve, and it's my family. We always celebrated on Christmas Eve instead of Christmas. Because of my need to have immediate gratification, I tried to make them open presents at midnight. The story is quite overblown.

[00:42:26] Barbra: Anyway, everybody got tired of waiting till midnight. So we have [00:42:30] this tradition of just doing Christmas on Christmas Eve and getting it over with. but, uh, yeah, I sort of made this song about all the. magical anticipation of Christmas Eve and it's out everywhere and I'll be performing it live on December 15th at the Jazz Room. So people can hurry and get tickets. After that, we'll be on the road to Alaska throughout most of March. So if anybody [00:43:00] listening is from there or otherwise is able to, grab a sleigh and a reindeer please fly over.

[00:43:07] Rosalyn: Tell your Alaskan friends, you know, go check it out. Well, thank you so much, Barbara. This has been such a great conversation safe travels out there.

[00:43:15] Barbra: Thank you. [00:43:30] Keep playing that folk-ing music. [00:44:00]