Improvising & Creative Risk Taking with Sophie Lukacs

[00:00:00] Rosalyn: Hello and welcome to Refocus Today. Our guest is Sophie Luca, Halen from Montreal by way of Budapest. Sophie is a Cora player, singer, and composer.

She draws inspiration from her long training in western classical violin. And over seven years of study in Molly with Cora Virtuoso to Man Jabba Sophie is forging a distinctive and alluring style within the folk music tradition as a singer songwriter. Her concerts are built around her own original works for Cora and Voice intertwined with Hungarian folk tunes and Malian Manang pieces.

Her debut album will be released in April. featuring two tracks with the legendary Habib Kote LAN says at the Shankman Center in Ottawa and the Toronto Jazz Bistro she's accompanied on stage by Calabasas and cello and sings in English, Bamba and Hungarian. Welcome, Sophie.

[00:00:50] Sophie: Hello. Thank you for having me.

[00:00:52] Rosalyn: I was just saying before we started recording that it's too bad this is a podcast. everyone can't see your very cool and eclectic looking shelf behind you. Tons of books. A ton of neat artifacts up there.

I feel like in some ways a lot of the stuff that's up there some of the artifacts draw from some of the same cultural traditions as your music.

Can you tell us a little bit about that and go into a bit about how you got introduced to to that culture

[00:01:17] Sophie: Yeah. So I had never been exposed to Moning music. I grew up listening mostly to like Western Classical and Ger and, I was like in my early twenties, and I had been invited to go to Kinso. and I saw Abib in concert and it was like one of the most amazing shows I've ever seen. And I heard a lot of Cora music and saw Cora players and was kind of blown away by this instrument and also how much incredible music I was hearing in Rick Faso.

And so I came back home to Montreal and kind of became obsessed with this musical culture and like bought all the CDs of Toman and que and all the core music I could get my hands on. And I think it took me a while until I kind of allowed myself to think about playing. I think I, I always wanted to, but I, I didn't see any models of what that would look like. I only saw it in the context of the Grios, I, I do remember coming home and like googling, I remember this very distinctly. I was like living in the basement of my parents' house and I googled like Cora players in Montreal and at the time there were none. So I was like, oh, well just forget about that and try to go to med school cuz that was like my new plan.

and so kind of put that aside and was just like listening, just doing like a lot of musical research and then it was like five years later I gave up the med school thing yeah, I was living in New York at the time and I was kind of seeing like signs of, the Cora, or I saw like a Cora player and a festival in Brooklyn. And, you know, I think I, I had a little bit more space.

I was not on the med school path anymore. And, I went to a, show, it was at the Met Museum. It was on a Friday. It was music at the Met. and I asked the Cora player, it was Yaku Soko who says band. He's a Malin core player. And I asked him if I could have a lesson. And I went to Harlem the next day and, I had a lesson.

And I think as soon as I had the Quora in my hands on my lap. Cause it's for people who don't know the Quora, it's a very large instrument and most of the time you place sitting down with it placed on your knees, thighs. So, and that was kind of the beginning of when I actually started study.

[00:03:40] Rosalyn: do a lot of women play the Cora? I feel like a lot of the people you mentioned were, were men that you were listening to. has there been maybe traditionally a gender divide there?

[00:03:49] Sophie: Yeah, absolutely. so. I'll just speak to the tradition in Mali, but I think in most of West Africa women would sing and men would play instruments. And then further the people who played the musicians were from the musical cast. So in the Manan culture, they were the or the jelly.

So you were born. Into the musical families and the music was passed on through the families throughout the generations and centuries. So the CO and the Quora. So you had to berio a mayor. I think also the there's a lot of like folklore and mysticism around the Quora, so that was another reason women couldn't play.

Like they said, if you played the Quora, you wouldn't be able to have children and many legends around the choir. That, so that's one of them.

[00:04:47] Rosalyn: But what was the reaction like, so you're, not male, you're not a grillo,

[00:04:51] Sophie: so I think like, because I'm not ma I'm not from West Africa. I'm a white woman. So I think as an outsider to this musical culture, like I come with the same kind of expectations and limitations Are not really upheld for me. So I know that in Molly there still aren't a lot of women who play. There are a few, you know, and there are women who play instruments. There are uh, women guitarists, singer, songwriters and I have a friend, WESA. She is a core player, Marlene, core player and singer.

And, so the challenges that she faces in society are, not the same as, as me. And it's been like a slow process for her own family to accept that You know, she's a core player.

So for me, obviously my, family thought I was a little bit crazy, but after we're very supportive and, uh, my experience in Molly and in the community was positive. I think I faced a lot of challenges that are not so different from other women in the industry that aren't necessarily specific to Cora players.

So, yeah, I think like, trying to learn from Cora Masters who just don't wanna teach you. And, like that's something That could happen in any musical field or dynamic. But

there were obviously like a lot of challenges to learning an instrument that is traditionally, learned and taught orally, so it was very different from studying western classical music.

[00:06:29] Rosalyn: But then you go on to study with, one of the most well known Cora players. Toman. Giba. How did you connect with him?

[00:06:38] Sophie: So you know, I started study in New York I, one of the things that was really challenging for me was this idea of having like a Met, your teacher. And I was very confused. It's all, it's also, this other musical culture and no one was really guiding me or it was like a choose your own adventure book. And I was, really concerned also about respecting my teachers and respecting the culture and, so, this was one of the things, I didn't really know how it worked. Like I thought, well, if you have your teacher, then that's like your one teacher and then you're not allowed to study with different teachers so I was a little bit confused, by that.

And, you know, I studied with Yaba and then I studied with another teacher in New York, and then I came to Montreal and when I started, I was really looking for like the math who would really teach me. But like 10 years later I can say, like, I think I, I put so much expectation on like one teacher, like teaching me everything when in the reality, unless you're maybe like.

Tani's son. It doesn't work like that. So Tani gave a masterclass in Paris, back in 2014, and my mom was like, well, you have to go, it's his music that inspired you so much. So I went to Paris and I was part of a, group masterclass and then I stayed a little longer and he invited me to Bacco.

And of course that this was, I think I knew when I started studying that I needed to go and study. And I had always wanted to go and study in Mali because every country has its own style. Every region has its own style, even though it used to be all one. Empire and it was really like the Malian style that I wanted to study.

So Tani invited me to Buco, so of course I said yes. and I arrived early September in 2015. And I got typhoid right away.

and I got very sick. And it was kind of like that for the first two years I was constantly sick. Uh, And then after that I was okay.

So that was one of the challenges And then, With Tooman. He, when I arrived, he was like finishing an album in Paris with m Matthew, Shadi and Fat, and another artist. So, he was quite busy and in the beginning to, I was like, very let's say naive about how quickly I could learn.

I think I really, felt like I was really late. don't know compared to what or who, but I felt I was like really old. I was starting a new instrument. Like I wasn't for like, I had been with the violin. I felt like I had a lot of catching up to do and I think, so I arrived in Mali with this idea that I would just like learn everything in one year. Which is really funny in retrospect. And then I think over the next like seven, eight years my perspective shifted so much on so many things. Even just like my relationship to the Quora and to music and yeah, I have a lot to say. But, so I studied with Toman and then I also ended up studying with many players.

And, came to understand that like all my friends who are Quora players and Molly, everybody plays with everybody. And the kind of first five years I spent one year studying with one teacher. And I still have great relationships with all my core teachers and.

I was just back there in December, in May and it's so nice to play with them cuz the musical repertoire is, such that you keep building on it and it's like that throughout your life. I think

[00:10:11] Rosalyn: Can you explain a little bit about, that? Like what do you mean when you say that you keep building on it? Is it like a set type of repertoire that you're improvising on or can you explain it a bit?

[00:10:19] Sophie: Yeah. So the Manang repertoire is about 500 pieces of music and most of them have a song, like a vocal and in each song there's many different vari. So, I don't know. I know maybe about 20 or 30. And most of them I've been working on since I started playing the Cora. And you play the accompaniments and the melody and then, you know, you keep practicing and then you improvise.

And it's really fun when you play with other core players because one person plays accompaniment and you, just improvise. And you keep building on that over the years and kind of never ends.

[00:11:02] Rosalyn: coming from, you know, that Western classical background, were you used to improvising or was this something new to you?

[00:11:09] Sophie: No, I have a funny story about that. So I remember when I came back from Kin a Faso, And I was listening to like Ali Farka and I remember I started improvising on my violin and it was the first time that I ever improvised on my violin. It sounds crazy, maybe to some people who have grown up, like always just playing whatever they, but to me it was, like mind blowing.

Like, wait, I can play along to an Ali IK album. I don't need to just play whatever B or not whatever, ba But

[00:11:42] Rosalyn: Sure Pa.

[00:11:43] Sophie: offense, ba you are still the og. but with the co I definitely for many years I would not improvise. And I also felt that was another thing, like I had to reach a certain level.

Before, I mean, this was all in my head. Like I, I gave myself these limitations. And I remember in 2017 I, had a show this amazing Beon player, which is like one of the ancestors of the xylophone. But there would blocks and he invited me to play with them And we were rehearsing and I was just playing all the solos that I had learned from listening to Tani's albums. And Lasana said, Sophie, if you don't play like play, play, not this. Rehashing, playing too many solos. He's like, I'm not gonna pay you. You have to play. And I was like, no. And we were rehearsing and he is like, solo.

And I was like, no. He's like, solo. No. Like, no, don't make me play a solo. I was terrified.

[00:12:41] Rosalyn: What do you think was I think a lot of people have probably been in the same place you have. What do you think was holding you back and what was scary for you about, just letting go and, hopping Into that improvisatory

space?

[00:12:54] Sophie: well this, the story has a happy ending, but I'll get to it in a second. for sure, I think everyone maybe has different experiences to the way they studied music, but I. For me violin and, western classical music. I mean, so much of it is about imitating and perfecting you know, repertoire and these pieces.

So I think for me also, like, so my ear is so highly trained to any deviation from that, and I think the you can deviate when you get to a certain level, when you've really master the air quotes are, you know, then you're allowed. But otherwise, you're not allowed to deviate, like no, no with time with anything. So, that's a lot of pressure and It is the opposite. It doesn't really give you a space for any kind of, oh, I'm making some big statements here.

[00:13:46] Rosalyn: I love it.

[00:13:47] Sophie: No creative freedom in that. Well, no, it's just a very different way of playing music.

[00:13:51] Rosalyn: But I

think that translates across like, sometimes there's like, it's fear of failure, maybe fear of success, and like all wrapped up in the same place. And it can kind of be like that hesitation I, I get it all the time. just bonkers anxiety when it comes to improvising and I love improvising.

I love it's one of the, my favorite things to do. But I, there's a lot of like self-doubt, imposter syndrome, fear of all of the things that I can be scared about, you know?

[00:14:20] Sophie: yes, but I think that's so important too, right? so I go back to the story and then we come back to everything you're talking about. But, you know, I had been wanting to improvise, but I just, I was so scared to take that leap I had brought a looping pedal with me,

and the next day, you know, I woke up and I was like, no, I'm gonna sit down. I'm gonna record. You know, I had a little speaker, I had my little looping pedal, and I said, you know, I'm gonna, play like , which is one of the traditional pieces.

I'm just gonna play the accompaniment and I'm gonna improvise. And so I sat down and, okay, the batteries, like, there were no batteries. Batteries were moving. So I sat on a mission. It took me like a few hours because everything takes a very long time and moment ago. And I got back and I recorded and then just improvised just play it. And I did it. And I was like, what? This is crazy. This is so fun. And yeah, I mean, it was just like, ugh. It was like another, you know, world just opened. And then I think for the concert, I think I, I probably improvised a little bit and I got paid and he was happy.

My less identity. I think. The improvising and that vulnerability. It's not just how we improvise on stage. I think it's a good metaphor for many things and way we play music and the way we are on stage and, how we're able to share and really be, present and not judging ourselves and, it's all connected and it, really hard.

I remember I, one of my core teachers in Paris, Yako, a different one from Gambia, He told me him too. Sometimes he's on stage and he gets scared and then it's finished and then, you know, he closes in he can't improvise.

And this is like one of the greatest core players in the world. I mean, he's just incredible. So I, I think it's a practice. I think it's a practice in like, not judging yourself

and like learning how to show up and enjoy, the music making with whoever you're playing with.

And it's a, ongoing work that I don't think it ever ends.

[00:16:23] Rosalyn: Yeah. it's interesting that to the listener, like to the audience member, seeing you if you were just playing those notes by rote, you know, and the ones that you memorize and they, okay, that's nice, but you, there's like, almost like a bodily change that goes through you when you're actually like, in the moment improvising and in that, spirit of it.

And I think that the audience can feel that. And when you're, ready to be vulnerable, they'll lean in.

[00:16:50] Sophie: Yeah. I agree. I think the more you share, the more you know they feel When you're on stage, the public or whoever you're playing for. I've also gotten to a place now where if I'm not improvising I, kind of feel a little bad. Like, why not?

Like what, why didn't I, just gave like this safe performance and it doesn't feel, good to, to go that way anymore.

[00:17:14] Rosalyn: there's like a little extra piece that's like, oh, I could have given this little this extra bit that I had inside me.

[00:17:20] Sophie: Yeah,

[00:17:21] Rosalyn: leave it all on the stage, Sophie,

leave it

[00:17:23] Sophie: thinking my last show, I'm like yeah, because I got a little scared. It was like a different public and I was. Little scared. I, I have to give a safe performance with no wrong. No. Yeah,

[00:17:36] Rosalyn: if anyone can tell when that's a wrong note anyways. Right. Like,

[00:17:40] Sophie: I know. And there are no wrong notes anyways.

[00:17:42] Rosalyn: Oh, that, that's that's really neat though. Thank you for sharing that, part of it because it's, I think it's a really interesting part of like the psyche of musicianship

that isn't talked about too often.

So at some point then, like, when do you start writing your own songs and incorporating the Quora into your own songwriting?

[00:18:00] Sophie: I was always very conscious of being an outsider to the, the musical culture that I, was kind of obsessed with, like this idea of legitimacy As a Cora player, I invented a lot of things in my head.

Like, I was like, I don't want people to say like, oh, she's really good, like, for a woman, or She's really good for like a white woman. I just wanted to be a good Cora player. So, I think for me that meant really studying the repertoire for a long time before I tried to write my own music.

that went on for many years. Maybe about,

I don't know, four or five years I was studying the repertoire. But I think it was also, it kind of happened naturally, like. I remember early on I, I asked one of my teachers like, can I improvise? And he was like, yeah, like, can I write my own little solo into this song? And he said, yeah, of course.

So I remember we had an idea and he kind of helped me, figure out where to place the thumb cuz everything, all the fingers are moving at the same time. And that was a little tricky for me and it helped me. so I was improvising. Okay. So I felt like, okay, it's okay for me to improvise and then at a certain point I wanted to write My own melodies. I think before it wasn't even songs, I think I just wanted to, write accompaniments and like grooves on the Quora.

and then I thought, okay, I don't wanna write in English because that's weird. you know, no one sings in English with this instrument. So I had better write in Bamba. I speak Bamba, but definitely not, can't write songs.

So I asked a friend to help me, so I started writing some songs. With Bamba lyrics. So the whole first album was actually in Bamba, but that's a Covid story. And then that album is somewhere on a, hard drive, then I, began to feel like writing in Bomba is nice, but I would, like to sing in one my own languages or language, I feel more comfortable.

And so I started writing in English and then things kind of evolved from there. And I also realized, like

when I was writing and like, was able to write in. Ways that felt more in line with myself, that those songs made more sense. And I think these ideas of what I am allowed to do as a core player I began like shedding those over the years.

[00:20:33] Rosalyn: Yeah. Do you feel like writing original music you, were giving yourself permission then, or in some way, like kind of gave you license to do things a little differently than, maybe you had been taught or had expectations on yourself

[00:20:44] Sophie: Yeah, absolutely. nobody ever told me anything. I mean, none of my teachers told me, you have to master this. Before, I would say it was the opposite. And that helped me also get rid of those expectations that I had placed on myself. They all encouraged me to write my own music.

They were like, just play, Play whatever you feel like, find your own style. All my teachers. yeah, that was really important because. I think it's very limiting musically if you're just trying to do one thing. And also, especially with the Cora, because I'll never be a grill, I'll never be considered a grill.

It's not really what I'm trying to do. So I think it was great that I devoted so much time, not only because I enjoyed it and it's a beautiful musical culture but it gave me a good, base with the choir as I learned it like that and, also like changed my life.

[00:21:41] Rosalyn: So what's your creative process like now? When you're songwriting or when you're making music are you just drawing from the core or are there other parts of the creative process when you're songwriting?

[00:21:53] Sophie: I compose. On the Quora just because it's, I guess, an instrument that I have the closest relationship to since like the past decade.

But I also write on the piano cuz it kind of opens up so much more space. And then I try to transpose that on the Quora. And I am awaiting my new petal, which was my birthday present, which is a sustainer petal. So you have like three and a half seconds, which is really long for the Quora. yeah.

And then I think there are different ways of playing the Quora, which it, you don't need to have the Quora kind of be baseline to write the whole song. I think now that after this first album and kind of arranging with other instruments, the second album, definitely I'd like more space.

So the Cora isn't the base of everything because that can be a little plucky. so that's the like, instrumental answer to your question. I think the first album and the composing everything was based on the Quora and I was using like quite simple song structures and.

I would like now like to explore different directions, like more Hungarian folk music. I'm working with my a cellist and kind of working on different instruments transposing that on the Quora and just having more space in my compositions. It's a little bit tricky with the Quora by trying to figure that out and how that can be presented on stage as well.

[00:23:27] Rosalyn: when all this other, all the other career stuff like grant writing and promotion and, the album cycle and, all that starts to come up. how do you prioritize that creative time?

[00:23:39] Sophie: With discipline and also maybe with privilege you know, I'm not supporting a family or a lot of people, so, I mean, time is definitely like a luxury. But within my own life, definitely, like if I'm in Montreal, then I try to keep all the mornings for creative work and like from when I wake up to like lunchtime, so, not checking email and everything.

It doesn't always work, but definitely. I think it's a really important habit. The mornings before the brain is cluttered and yeah. So you know, if I'm healthy and then every day, the mornings, and then again evenings, if I mean just, but definitely making time. And for me it's definitely the morning.

Otherwise then you start, getting into all the

emails and it's so not conducive to, creative work. You need that, quiet and space. Writing a grant or updating your website or your link tree or your socials it's not creative for me.

[00:24:47] Rosalyn: Yeah. Do you find that draining

[00:24:48] Sophie: It's very hard. I am kind of always back and forth on how to deal with social media. And for me, I found like I take a lot of breaks. Like even if it was like, it's like a month if I don't have shows I think for people who use it as a tool, like in the creative field it's very hard.

We were talking about this with my dad yesterday. It's very hard. You know, I think it's, all designed to keep you addicted and Doom scrolling and all that. And even if you're not doom scrolling, I think for me, I can feel bad when I see things. you know, I feel like happy for my friends but I think it's really hard not to compare yourself to other musicians who are maybe like touring more, or, oh, they're in Paris, So it's hard, I think sometimes if I'm being like, very efficient. Productive. I'll like look at, oh, he's playing here. Oh, these are good venues. Like, let me send these to my agent. Maybe I could play here. But then other times it's like, ugh, you know? and I don't often feel good after I've had these thoughts and the, you know, I think I feel good when you're working and you're practicing, and for me not, not much of social media feels good.

[00:26:04] Rosalyn: I read this the other day. I wish I could remember where, but it was a musician talking about this exact thing, and saying like, you're not just comparing yourself to one other person, you're comparing yourself to like 50 other artists at the same time too, you that's

[00:26:18] Sophie: It's a lot and you can find something to compare yourself with everyone. Like, wow, this person has amazing visuals. Like, it, it's amazing if you're like, just envious and using that to work on how you can get to that place.

But it's also insane that you are comparing yourself to all these different people, you know, with zero contacts, and it just in like these perfect, like, cultivated images that, so it's, damn Instagram is, it would be nice if all the social media is just shut down for a while.

[00:26:52] Rosalyn: Yeah. Could they do that? Can we.

[00:26:54] Sophie: I don't think so. Maybe we can start a hashtag

[00:26:57] Rosalyn: Do it from within. I feel like if anyone could do it, you have a gumption, I think yeah, we can work on it.

Before we end this episode we're excited to premiere a live recording of a song that you performed at last year's Folk Music Ontario conference, which was recorded by the very multi-talented Tim O'Reilly from Sound Still Productions. If you're interested in watching this beautiful video I will link it in the show notes as well as all of Sophie's information and where you can find out more about her but also you can head to our website, folk music ontario.org/refocus, r e f o l k, us and you'll be able to watch this beautiful video.

uh, before we go, Sophie, can you tell us a little bit about this song.

[00:27:42] Sophie: Yeah. So Falling is one of the songs on my upcoming album, which will be released in April, and I wrote it along with the rest of the album in Bamako. And it's a song about kind of plunging into. the unknown uh, in the beginning stages of of a relationship and making yourself vulnerable.

And I think that the kind of uncertainties and that can bring and yeah, so it's song about that.

[00:28:12] Rosalyn: Incredible. Well, Sophie, thank you so much for joining us and everyone please enjoy falling by Sophie Lu.

[00:28:19] Sophie: Thank you for having me. This was so fun.