Having Hard Conversations with Shakura S'Aida

[00:00:00] Rosalyn: Hello, and welcome to season two of ReFolkUs, where we talk to artists and music industry professionals about building sustainable careers as creative workers with a focus on folk. I'm your host, Rosalyn Dennett

[00:00:18] . Hello and welcome to ReFolkUs. [00:00:30] Shakura S’Aida is an award winning performer who has traveled the globe for more than two decades connecting and inspiring audiences with her powerful vocals.

[00:00:37] Rosalyn: An undeniable talent and an outspoken advocate for human rights and racial equality, her artistic work reflects that which impacts and connects us all. Love, conflict, community, life and death. A central figure in Toronto's music scene, the Brooklyn born, Swiss raised entertainer has garnered not only an international recording and touring career, but has shined on the theater [00:01:00] stage as star and creator of the four woman tribute to Nina Simone, The Nina Project, and in roles on screen, including as Lena, member of the beloved Jazza Gals in the acclaimed series Schitt's Creek.

[00:01:11] Rosalyn: Her latest album, Hold On To Love, was nominated for Contemporary Roots Album of the Year at the 2023 Juno Awards and won Album of the Year at the 2023 Ontario Folk Music Awards. Please welcome Shakura S’Aida. [00:01:30] Hello, Shakura. How are you doing?

[00:01:31] Shakura: Hi, Rosalyn. I'm good. How are you?

[00:01:34] Rosalyn: I'm doing very well. I am really looking forward to this conversation about conversations, but also kind of dreading this conversation about conversations because it's about hard conversations. I wanted to, let everyone in on, some of the inspiration why I asked you to be a part of this, you specifically, you know, without getting into the details, but, I'll start by saying that I am conflict avoidant to the very core of me. I [00:02:00] find hard conversations fascinating, but, but difficult. And, my instinct inside is to run away, and hide from them and get as far away as I possibly can. And, you know, we had a situation where we were, kind of dealing with the same conflict.

[00:02:12] Rosalyn: And, my instinct was, maybe this will just go away if we don't acknowledge it and, and look at it directly. you know, and, your approach to it was, really. quite the opposite, and it was about, talking to the, people involved directly, and getting, possibly those people to [00:02:30] talk to each other, and really facing, the conflict head on with, a hard conversation with, and with multiple hard conversations, did you see it that way as well?

[00:02:38] Rosalyn: Is that how you would typically approach something like that? you come to it in the moment?

[00:02:43] Shakura: I think for me, I spent a lot of my younger years compromising on my truth. On conversations in order to maintain peace, and I come from a family where we've always talked about things. You know, I would have conversations with my mom about sex from the time that [00:03:00] I decided I was going to have it.

[00:03:01] Shakura: when I learned that my parents would listen to me and would give me their opinion, whether I liked it or not, made me want to have those conversations with everyone on top of it. I'm a born Brooklyn night, you know, New Yorkers. They'll tell you what's going on, and they'll be straight up forward.

[00:03:16] Shakura: And I've learned over the past few years that not every, country, every state is like this. Other people tend to be a lot more, quiet or, or perhaps even passive aggressive about how they approach things. [00:03:30] But I find that allows you to be misunderstood. with my kids, I've always believed in, in talking and, and saying, you know, this is what's going on.

[00:03:38] Shakura: This is how I feel about it. Let's talk about it. I might react and, react perhaps in a negative way. I might get a little bit angry, but I'm always going to be willing to listen. You know, and to, to consider what's going on and my number one rule is, if I'm speaking to someone, am I speaking to them because I need to say it or because I think it's actually going to help us move forward?

[00:03:58] Shakura: And so that's how I judge [00:04:00] whether or not to have a conversation. Is this just for me or is this for our future journey? And I have to be honest. six, seven times out of 10, it's just for me. So I have the conversation in my head, and I don't have it with the person, but if I think we're going to be having future relationships, then I really do think it's necessary that I say it in a way that leaves my emotional side out of it.

[00:04:27] Shakura: And just talk about, this is what happened,[00:04:30] this is how I took it, this is how I would like to move forward, what do you think? And I'm really clear about that, you know, because the emotional side of it we get caught up in that. What I'm looking for are results. What I'm looking for is how do we resolve this.

[00:04:45] Shakura: We can keep talking about the problem, your side, my side, and the truth that's in the middle, or we can figure out how to move forward. And that's always my goal. Let's move forward. if it's something I don't think we can move forward on, I'm really honest about saying, I hear what you're saying.

[00:04:59] Shakura: I understand why [00:05:00] you did what you did. I understand why you need to move in that direction. That doesn't work for me. Thank you very much for your honesty, for your clarity. I'm going to go left. You go right. I'm almost 60. I ain't got time for that.

[00:05:12] Rosalyn: That leads into my question about when you said sometimes you have these conversations with yourself. So, Maybe there's a time when we kind of think to ourselves, Oh, it's not, worth it.

[00:05:21] Rosalyn: It's not worth it to have these conversations and maybe worth the time, worth the energy. So when we are having these conversations, and decide to enter into a difficult [00:05:30] conversation, you do that out of respect, right? You want to keep that relationship, and you respect that person. Like, it actually means a lot if somebody's coming to talk to you about something difficult because probably like you said, 60 percent of the time they're just going to have that conversation in their head and not, not bother.

[00:05:44] Shakura: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's also about understanding expectations. You know, I always ask them when, when I'm talking to, you know, my friends and they're talking about, you romantic relationships and, and talking to their partners. or some person they're dating. What is your expectation with the [00:06:00] conversation that you're hoping to have?

[00:06:01] Shakura: nine times out of 10, the people have already told you who they are, either through their actions or through their words. So you already know how they're going to react. What is your expectation? So part of having a conversation is really being realistic about your expectations. Is your expectation that that person will listen?

[00:06:19] Shakura: Is your expectation that that person will change? Is that expectation that, you know, you guys come to some big, kumbaya moment? And how realistic are those expectations based on the [00:06:30] relationship you have with that person? Because if you're dealing with a stranger, and you know, they bite in front of you, and you say, hey, you bite it in front of me, what is your expectation?

[00:06:39] Shakura: Are you expecting them to say sorry and move out of the way? or you just want to be acknowledged? If you just want to be acknowledged, do you really need to tell them? because why do you need to be acknowledged for that? You just realize that they've been in front of you. If you're over it, then you're over it.

[00:06:52] Shakura: But if you want them to acknowledge you and move, then understand that your expectations might not be met. it's just about going into [00:07:00] with this thing of, I'm just telling them because I want our relationship to be in a better place. However, you're going to react is going to be acceptable to me.

[00:07:09] Shakura: I might not like it, you react however you want to, but I want our relationship to be based on clarity and truth and transparency. So this is why I'm giving you this information. You did this, or I did this, you reacted this way, I reacted this way. I would like to figure out how we're going to move forward from this.

[00:07:27] Shakura: I'm not giving you this information to put blame on you. I just want [00:07:30] to know, do you want to move forward with our relationship? Whether it's romantic, whether it's business, whatever it is, or do you not? And if so, how do we stop this from happening next time? That's what I want to get to.

[00:07:40] Rosalyn: So there's, like an interesting juxtaposition between like romantic, business, friends, family, in all of those things, I guess there's, there's different power dynamics going

[00:07:50] Rosalyn: I'm wondering if we can talk a little bit about maybe the business relationship having, hard conversations and, those types of relationships.

[00:07:58] Rosalyn: Do you approach them [00:08:00] differently?

[00:08:00] Shakura: I think as a woman and for me as a black woman, I have found it really challenging to have hard conversations. When I was younger, I certainly learned through, I was a sponsorship manager for a long time, worked in PR, worked in events, and I learned how to ask with a smile and a gleam in my eye, show my dimples, as my ex husband used to say, push my boobs in somebody's face. You know, all of those things that we, as women, [00:08:30] unfortunately learn will get us past that point of being considered a hard ass, whatever that word is that, you know, we don't need to use here.

[00:08:37] Shakura: All of those things that we get perceived as if we ask what we want to ask when we want to ask it, I've taken a lot of notes from the men in my band, from watching my dad, from watching just men in general, how they speak to each other. They're very clear. And I, often wonder why that clarity and that straightness of [00:09:00] conversation isn't accepted when a woman gives it.

[00:09:02] Shakura: What is that? Not just between Male to female, but also female to female, and I'm talking gendered here because that's my experience, you know, I can't speak for anyone who's non binary, you know, non gendered, I can't, but I just know for me, as a woman, as a black woman. I've had people accuse me of threatening them when I'm speaking to them just like this, and really just being curious about why a situation is like that.

[00:09:28] Shakura: You know, they've said, you know, I was [00:09:30] accusatory, I've had people tell me that I have an attitude, when I take the time to think about my words and I say, this is why I'm doing a certain things. to the point where it ends up in huge conflicts, like money, losing conflicts, friendship, losing conflicts. And I've gotten to the point where I just understand that it's their issue. It's actually not mine. You know, this is how I speak. I speak the same way with my kids. I speak the same way with my partners. I speak the same way with my parents. And [00:10:00] yes, I can joke around and I'm really silly, but when I'm talking about business or when something needs to get done, Let's be clear. We don't have time to play around. You know, most of the time, everybody has 10,000 things that they're doing and 10,000 things that are in their minds. So the more clarity you can give someone with your needs, your wants, your necessities, the easier you make it for them.

[00:10:20] Shakura: To do their job and then move on to whatever else they have to do, but I do find that people thinking that I'm angry. You know, just because I'm speaking like this and so me having to, to [00:10:30] smile, me having to learn how to be a little bit gentler, but as a New Yorker, that's hard because it's like, you know, just open the door, and a situation with, our dear chairperson of the board, Cecile on the ride home where we're driving and I was like, Oh, get that over there, put that over there. Yeah, do that. I'm driving and I'm just thinking about what needs to be done. And she said, do you always speak in imperialistic terms? And I clutched my pearls so hard they broke. And then I thought about what she was saying. [00:11:00] And what she was saying was, I need to say please and thank you.

[00:11:03] Shakura: And I took the note. I took the note.

[00:11:05] Shakura: And next thing I said, I said, Please, or would you please? Because I realized that when I'm driving, I'm in let's go mode. And so it really is, what do I need to say that won't take my attention away as much as possible? You know, just put that there.

[00:11:19] Shakura: Okay, great. But I'm not thinking in terms of please and thank you, which normally isn't my vocabulary. But it was a great note for me to get on what somebody else needed. [00:11:30] And that was a hard conversation. It could have been a hard conversation. She was letting me know, this is what she needs. For me, in order to communicate with me and I was like, okay, I can say please and thank you, I might crash while I'm saying please and thank you, or you're welcome because now you taking my attention out the road, but if that's what you want from me, you know, that's what I'm going to give you.

[00:11:51] Shakura: But, you know, it was, it was, it could have been a really hard conversation or she could have gotten upset. At how she was receiving my tone and thinking it [00:12:00] meant something else and not told me and that could have led to a further conflict. But the relationship that we have means that we can be that clear and she knows me.

[00:12:09] Shakura: When I say stuff, I say what I mean. I mean what I say. If it bothers you, let me know. If the way I'm speaking to you offends you, just say, Hey, you need to be a little bit softer with me. I'll be okay. I can do that sometimes. But sometimes I'm just going to be like, Hey, let's get it done.

[00:12:22] Rosalyn: hmm?

[00:12:22] Shakura: I need you to understand that that's me.

[00:12:24] Shakura: And it's not you,

[00:12:26] Rosalyn: Yeah. I mean, I've had the same notes given to me by [00:12:30] a loved one. And in your own mind, you're like, of course, of course, I appreciate what you're doing. Of course, I love you. Of course, I respect you. And, the conflict is that, that's possibly not being communicated when I'm saying, pass the peas or whatever I'm, I'm asking for at the time.

[00:12:44] Rosalyn: But at the end of the day, I do want to communicate that. I do want that person to feel loved and respected and cared for.

[00:12:50] Rosalyn: So, thank goodness they said something to me. And, but the reality is that you're, you're distracted by whatever else is going on at the time and, not thinking about it. And sometimes I've [00:13:00] been acute. I get this tone, which is a TMI. I get this tone in my voice when I'm really thinking about what I say and it just gets slower.

[00:13:09] Rosalyn: And I bet my podcast producer wishes that I always spoke in this way. Nice and enunciating. Um, But it also comes off like I'm, I'm really slowing it down for you in case you miss it, it's like, no, this is for me, It's, it, those things that are kind of lost in, translation of what we think we're doing and how [00:13:30] it's, how it's perceived, I guess, is the, what I'm

[00:13:32] Shakura: Yeah. Because anybody has their own baggage, right? Everybody has their own filters that they're receiving your information through. And based on what they've gone through in their life, your tone, your. behavior, will impact one of their filters and make it vibrate in a way that might make it difficult for them to receive what you're giving.

[00:13:50] Shakura: And I've had the same thing. And I just realized last year, I knew that my kids know the quieter I get, the angrier I am. and my band [00:14:00] knows this too. They say I get round mouth and they literally, if they see me and it's with a stage hand or somebody in the airport or whatever, and they see. They see my mouth going round and they hear my voice getting really quiet.

[00:14:13] Shakura: They literally back up, pull out a bag of popcorn and add extra butter. And they pass it back and forth sitting there going, Ooh, what's going to happen now? We know it's going to be good, but my kids will say to somebody. You need to leave her alone right now. And I've watched them now adapt that same tone,[00:14:30] But what I've also realized is that I am somebody who, astrologically speaking, I'm a Sagittarius. And Sagittarians are either high or they're low. And so my challenge throughout my life has been finding balance. And the way that I find balance is that I don't yell. If I yell, that means I've lost all control.

[00:14:51] Shakura: That means the, top is off of the lid. You know, the water is boiling and cannot be contained. The lava is hot and I can no longer see [00:15:00]. I can no longer be contained, controlled anything. That is never the place I want to go to because it's not a beautiful place at all. And it's, it's a, for me, it's a very sad place to go to.

[00:15:12] Shakura: So. The angrier I get, the quieter I get, so that you actually have to listen to what I'm saying. The challenge with that is, it's been taken as me giving tone, or me be condescending, or me having attitude. And what I realized last year is, I also speak that way [00:15:30] when I haven't yet processed something, but I know that I have to communicate.

[00:15:35] Shakura: with people before I'm ready to, and in order for me to not go into an emotional place, I tap that down and I become really pragmatic. But again, what that has led to is people thinking that I'm being condescending. I'm giving them attitude. And, and I find that so interesting because when has calmness Ever been associated with, being [00:16:00] condescending and what it speaks to is not to me.

[00:16:03] Shakura: It speaks to how they think about you already. unfortunately, it speaks to their insecurities when it comes to your relationship. You know, because if somebody really knows you and trusts you, they're not going to think that you're trying to be above them. They're not going to think that you're, giving them attitude.

[00:16:18] Shakura: They're going to know you well enough to know, okay, I need to listen right now. I need to just, they're trying to get through something, you know? And I think it's also about now I communicate that to people, you know, I'll say I'm being really clear [00:16:30] right now. So that we can get on the same page because I think it's really important moving forward that we not have this conversation again, that we can move to the next conversation.

[00:16:39] Shakura: You know that I think that's really important. And I've learned now, like I said, I'm almost 60 and I've waited a long time to get here. I've been through a lot to get here. I've made a lot of mistakes to get here and I've gone through a lot of different types of lives. I deserve to speak in a way that leads [00:17:00] people to accepting me and understanding me the way I really am, as authentically me as I can be. Period.

[00:17:08] Rosalyn: With regards to the power dynamic when you're dealing with, a buyer, uh, employer and engager, those kinds of conversations and those negotiations, do you have a way, like something in your back pocket that you use to like to have those kinds of talks like an example of like negotiating a fee or like something like that, you know.

[00:17:27] Shakura: I think what I've learned is that I'm [00:17:30] more experienced now. I'm at a certain level of my life. I'm certainly not, you know, Diana Ross or Tina Turner or Barbra Streisand. And so I don't need, well, I do need their fees. I really do. If anybody's listening, I would love to have a Tina Turner type fee.

[00:17:45] Shakura: But I don't need to pretend that that's where I'm at, but I think any conversation I have, I know my worth. and that's where it comes from. I'm at a place now where I'm grounded with who I am. I have no misconceptions about me being, you know, Serena Ryder. I know I'm [00:18:00] not her. I love her dearly, and I love where she's at in her life.

[00:18:03] Shakura: And I know you're not going to pay me at that level, but I do know my worth. and I do expect to get paid at my level. So I will have an initial conversation with you and then I will send it over to my management team, you know, to my agents because I don't want to talk business because I don't want you to tell me that you don't think my worth is what I know it to be.

[00:18:23] Shakura: and I'm very clear about that. I just came from the blues summit. And I had some conversations where people wanted to talk to me about business. And I said, you [00:18:30] know, you can say whatever you want to say to me, but you're going to be meeting with my mom in a couple of weeks. And she's my boss and she's going to have an entirely different conversation with you.

[00:18:37] Shakura: And I wish you luck, you know, because, as my mother says, I will smile and I have fun with people and I will talk about these grandiose ideas. But the truth of the matter is I'll tell you what I want. But if you start negotiating with me, I need to send you over there. Because I'm not going to do that anymore.

[00:18:54] Shakura: I'm an artist, I am a businesswoman, but I'm an artist. And I do understand that me representing myself [00:19:00] means that you're going to think that I don't need as much. But I do, and I, I also think what I've learned, I have great social anxiety, huge social anxiety.

[00:19:10] Shakura: And I also used to have huge stage fright before a show. So, the things that I've learned are, in order to get through the social anxiety, I embrace people, like physically embrace people, so that we can feel each other's energy, so that they know I come in peace, but it also helps to put me at [00:19:30] ease, cause I know they're getting to feel me.

[00:19:31] Shakura: And getting to see the real me. I make sure I keep it business. I'm going to joke around with you and stuff like that. But business is business. I had one buyer and I can talk about this because I doubt they're going to remember, but they came up to me after my showcase. And they were like, you know, you are the best black girl band.

[00:19:48] Shakura: And I went, nope, we're going to cut race out of it. You do not need to be bring race into this. And he goes, okay, you are the best girl. And I went, nope. We're going to take gender out of this too. Why don't you just say the best [00:20:00] band? And he went, okay, okay. You know, and they could have taken offense at that, but I didn't care.

[00:20:06] Shakura: Because my boundaries are my boundaries. I don't need you talking to me about being Black, unless I have opened that door. I do not need you talking to me about being a woman, unless it's, it's appropriate, you know, I don't need that. And in that circumstance, it's not appropriate. You know, people coming up and interrupting conversations when you're clearly talking to someone and being able to say, I'll be with you in just a moment.

[00:20:27] Shakura: I just want to finish this. Or please give me a minute, and not [00:20:30] allowing them to disrespect someone else or to disrespect you. it doesn't always get taken well, you know, that also happened during the week and it doesn't get taken well and I have to go back and apologize, but the truth of the matter is I'm doing a showcase.

[00:20:42] Shakura: We're having a line check, which means we're not even having a sound check. I need to check in with my band before this is my game. I'm in game mode, I don't have time to be nice. I don't have time to be cute. I don't have time because people give me a minute.

[00:20:54] Shakura: I'm talking to my band and I'll get back to you afterwards. That's hard. And I can be really abrupt[00:21:00] because I think I just say, hold on for a minute, people still come in. They don't always understand that. So I need to put the finger up and go, give me a minute, just a moment. I can't right now. All of which.

[00:21:11] Shakura: is not considered polite. Setting your boundaries is not considered polite. You have to house it nicely. You have to speak with a Southern accent. Can y'all give me a minute so I can get this done and I'll be right with y'all? No, that's not me. You know, so I do those things and I operate in that way because if you're going to [00:21:30] work with me, you have to know that that's part of the way I communicate.

[00:21:33] Shakura: I'm not a bad person. I don't mean any harm, but I'm very clear. and then afterwards we can go drink tequila and have fun and put our feet up, but when we're talking business or when I'm involved in business, it's going to be business.

[00:21:46] Shakura: Why is it okay for men to do that? Why is that okay?

[00:21:49] Shakura: For them to be, hey, John, you know, I know you asked for, you know, this much, but hey, we've only got this much room and you're just going to have to take it. And John will go, well, well, Dave. that's not going to work for me. [00:22:00] You know, you promised me this much room and that's what we're going to do. All right, John.

[00:22:04] Shakura: You're right. I did promise you that. I'll move some things around. Let's do it. If I talk like that, say, no, that's not what you promised me. All of a sudden I'm an angry black woman or I'm a real B I T C H. Heart knows, you know, all of those things come into it. I ain't got time for it.

[00:22:18] Rosalyn: It's Such a shame, all these layers of, trying to please people that we're putting over just trying to communicate and wanting to, communicate clearly and then having to mask it with all the, things to, to make other people feel [00:22:30] more comfortable with you communicating clearly.

[00:22:32] Shakura: Yes, it really is. and you really have to make a decision, for me it is, I will work my best at saying it as, softly or as gently as I can. But I'm also going to get it done. You know, One of the things that happened recently was being told, we're going to have a very short line check.

[00:22:51] Shakura: And I have a severe hearing loss. In my right ear, and it says so on my stage play. It says so, you know, on my rider. And the person [00:23:00] said, yeah, we're going to do this. And then, you know, guys will just have to fly with it. And I said, I have a severe hearing loss. I have a disability. I need to have a proper sound check on my microphone. And they looked at me and I said, it's an absolute necessity and they said, okay, I just, you can tell me what you need and I can say, okay, this works for me or it doesn't, but I can do the same thing, you know, and I think we really, benefit as Canadians. To just not be as passive aggressive, I think that's [00:23:30] where a lot of the miscommunication comes from, Smiling in your face and then turning around and doing what we want.

[00:23:36] Shakura: Anyway, why not just tell the person look I'm not gonna do it I'm not gonna do it I know that's what you want me to do, but I'm not going to do it. That's so much easier. And then I can either decide to keep negotiating with you and keep pushing the envelope, or I can just go, Oh, they're not going to do it and walk away and, you know, suck my thumb.

[00:23:52] Rosalyn: I absolutely agree. right off the hop, you were talking about coming from Brooklyn and that kind of culture change in, coming into Canada, [00:24:00] definitely there, there is a culture of that, that I've witnessed in Canada.

[00:24:04] Rosalyn: But how do we change that? I guess is, you know, how do we get more comfortable and sit inside of, the conflict or sit inside of the, uncomfortability,

[00:24:11] Shakura: Yeah. I think the discomfort is often fear. And I think, you know, getting over the fear is really important. You know, we're afraid of how people are going to perceive us if we tell them our truth or we set our boundaries. We're afraid of how they're going to react if we disagree with them. You [00:24:30] know, we're afraid of losing a job, of losing face, and It's never as bad as we think it's going to be.

[00:24:38] Shakura: Yeah, sometimes maybe it is, but we feel a lot better afterwards, you know, just being clear, telling people what you want and then having them say, well, now I'm going to do this anyway. And just stop going. No, this is actually what I need in order to get my job done. I don't think we can change a whole culture, but I do think it's important as [00:25:00] women, as people of color, as artists to stop playing around and thinking that that's going to get us more gigs.

[00:25:07] Shakura: You know, I think we need to be honest about what we need in order to get things done in a good way. I think I really have benefited from standing in my truth. from going up on stage and, confronting a situation as opposed to going, can you do me a favor and go over there and tell them that I need all the wires moved? You know, I'm wearing five inch heels. I go up on stage and I'll say [00:25:30] to someone, Hey, you see these heels.

[00:25:31] Shakura: Or do me a favor, y'all need to move these wires because I've got 5 inch heels on. As opposed to waiting till everybody's done and then gingerly walking around moving the wires. It's not my job! It's your job to make sure I'm safe. So I'm gonna be kind about it. Can you move those wires?

[00:25:46] Shakura: But I'm not gonna pretend like it's not your job. Get these wires out of the way. There shouldn't be wires all over the stage. I'm going to say, please, but you should know that that's your job already. I shouldn't even be asking you that. How are you leaving the thing a mess? If somebody with a [00:26:00] guitar trips on a wire, you're liable for that.

[00:26:02] Shakura: So move the damn wire, you know? So like things, things like that, like, you know, it's in my rider. I want two dressing rooms. Why do you have me changing with the guys? No. Find me another room and make sure there's a mirror in it because y'all want me to look pretty. You don't want me going on stage like this.

[00:26:19] Shakura: This is not pretty.

[00:26:20] Rosalyn: I will say for the listening audience that you look very pretty right now.

[00:26:25] Shakura: That's because I'm pretty when I'm angry. No. [00:26:30] But seriously, like all these things that are necessary, rather than going, do you guys have an extra room that, you know, I can change it. It's in my rider. There's supposed to be two rooms. Jump to it. It's in my rider. I get a kettle.

[00:26:44] Shakura: I'm not asking for it. Why am I asking for roast chicken? Because I get hungry after I sing. But anyway, like, you know what I mean? All of these things that we think are, too much, or they're going to make people not like us. It's in the contract. If it's not in the contract, put it in the contract because then all you have to do is say, [00:27:00] this is in the contract.

[00:27:02] Rosalyn: And it, it's in the contract, but also if I remember showing up to a gig and, getting like apology after apology. That they didn't have, like four, pure white bleached, towels there. just so apologetic and, I was like, that isn't something I even knew was in the rider.

[00:27:19] Rosalyn: but also like, if you can't do that, Just

[00:27:21] Rosalyn: say it up front.

[00:27:21] Shakura: Yeah. Some places don't have

[00:27:23] Shakura: dressing rooms. Yeah. So it's like, just let me know. the guys will change first. So we're going to put the guys in here, but I'm also going to be [00:27:30] clear and say that the room is too cold. If I go in that room, I won't have a voice.

[00:27:34] Shakura: You know, I'm going to be clear and say, there's no fog. If you put on fog, I can't sing. I'm going to be clear and say, do not touch my microphone. I jumped up and almost beat the sound guy. And he was such a really nice guy, but it says right there on my stage plot, do not touch Shakura's mic. And all of a sudden I'm off stage and I hear check to put some more.

[00:27:54] Shakura: Why are you doing that in my microphone? We are not that intimate. You didn't date me. You didn't buy me [00:28:00] dinner. And when I get dinner, I get an appetizer, main course and dessert. Sometimes two desserts. If you haven't given me that, then your mouth should be nowhere near my microphone. You know, if you haven't offered me something, like something, then you know, we are not that intimate.

[00:28:15] Shakura: So I jumped up on the stage. I'm like, no, stop right now. And I had to apologize because I knew I was abrupt. I knew I was really sharp with him, but again, there was no nice way to say, get off my microphone, you know? And so I apologized after I said, I'm really sorry [00:28:30] I was sharp with you. But he goes, well, yeah, I was trying not to talk right directly into it.

[00:28:38] Shakura: and he was such a nice man, but it's like, how do you tell somebody nicely? Don't do something right in the middle of something. And that's a hard conversation. When you only have like a minute..

[00:28:47] Rosalyn: yeah, I mean, that's such a, Great example of the kind of conflict that could get out of hand, right? Because you know, you're saying that this is a nice person, you're feeling disrespected because they didn't read your writer and they're not, paying attention to [00:29:00] it or remembering or respecting what's in your writer and they're going, I need to do my job and do this quick turnover and

[00:29:06] Shakura: exactly. And I've got all these things to do and she's not here. So let me just do it. Let me just do it real quick. And I was like, no, that's not what we do. I find, you know, you saved respect. I didn't feel so much disrespected as I felt disregarded. and I'm such a stickler about that because I'm a germaphobe.

[00:29:22] Shakura: And you know, you're putting your mouth on it, but hard conversations require you to not just acknowledge how you're feeling, but to acknowledge [00:29:30] how the other person might be feeling or what you might have done to the other person. Hard conversations mean to acknowledge.

[00:29:36] Shakura: And to listen. It's not just about how do I get my agenda out to you? How do I make sure that you hear me? How do I make sure that I hear what they're saying? Because maybe I misunderstood. Maybe I overreacted. Maybe this whole situation was my fault. You know, maybe I did something in that. So one of the things about hard conversations.

[00:29:55] Shakura: To bring it back to that is literally you have to be willing to listen and [00:30:00] consider that you might be wrong.

[00:30:02] Rosalyn: Maybe taking it out of the business realm then, like, I feel like I'm getting messages daily from people who are having such a hard time in their personal relationships right now. because, I mean, the world's at conflict. There's a lot of folks who are coming at things from opposing viewpoints.

[00:30:20] Rosalyn: And that's like in a whole bunch of different arenas. So this always comes up when we talk about stuff like family gatherings, but you know, social media also is like a [00:30:30] huge, huge, huge player in that. How do you approach these things or do you have advice for folks who are, literally losing, friends and, not talking to family members right now because, they're coming at things from opposing viewpoints.

[00:30:42] Shakura: No, I, I honestly, I've learned this with my daughters. I've learned that time can be a great healer. I've learned to give things space sometimes because I need it sometimes because they do. I've also learned unconditional love. I was raised with unconditional love and [00:31:00] acceptance. That is a huge one for me with my friends, with my daughters, with my partners.

[00:31:05] Shakura: and also with my band members, you know, unconditional acceptance. That means I know who you are. I know where your heart is. I know how you handle conflict. I know how you handle sadness. I know your heart.

[00:31:17] Shakura: And if we're not connecting right now, I still know your heart. And I mean, I went through this with, Black Lives Matter, you know, when Black Lives Matter was really going on during [00:31:30] COVID. I remember how hurt I was at how Different people weren't speaking up or different people weren't getting involved.

[00:31:39] Shakura: And then, you know, all these other conflicts and, and, and things came up. And, and I realized that something that Kelly Lee has taught me, Kelly Lee Evans, compassion.

[00:31:49] Shakura: With unconditional love and acceptance, you have to offer compassion and grace, because not everybody processes things the way that I process. Not [00:32:00] everybody can communicate the way that I communicate, and thank God for that. You know, not, not everyone has the same skill set. I'm lacking in some skill sets.

[00:32:11] Shakura: So, when I give someone compassion, what I'm doing is thinking, Wow. They're having a really hard time right now. They're trying to figure out this and this and this, and they're struggling. And their challenges are really impeding their growth or our relationship. They need compassion right now.

[00:32:28] Shakura: They need me to just [00:32:30] go, I love you. I can't hang out with you right now. Or I need some space right now. But I love you. that grace is not everybody is able to process things. in the same way, time, with compassion, with empathy, all of those things. Not everyone was raised, we're not raised the same way.

[00:32:50] Shakura: You know, the four agreements, everybody's got their own agenda. and that agenda isn't necessarily a negative agenda, you know, it's just, that's how they're seeing the world, their [00:33:00] life. And if we start cutting people out or leaving relationships based just on conflict, when I say just on conflict, you know, what we're saying is the only way you can be in my life is if we agree on every single thing. What an empty life that'll be if every one of us agrees on exactly the same thing, and we have no disagreements. We have nothing that we, differ on. You know, Trevor Noah, I was listening to one of his podcasts [00:33:30] other day, and he was talking about how we've lost the art of.

[00:33:34] Shakura: discussing things that we don't agree on. What we do now is we immediately cancel people and we no longer have this discourse. And I remember, it should probably kill me for mentioning this, but I remember years ago speaking to one, I'll just say one of my daughters, one of my daughters about, a friend.

[00:33:51] Shakura: She was really frustrated with a friend because she said, you know, they just don't know about things. They would make all these comments about things to do with [00:34:00] gender issues or indigenous issues or black issues.

[00:34:02] Shakura: They just say things that really bothered her that made them think that they were misogynistic or racist or whatever it was. And I said, you know, Every time they would say something, she would just get mad at them and, and tell them how wrong they were or correct them in a really, I felt was an unkind way.

[00:34:18] Shakura: And the thing that I said to her was, if you don't allow them to ask the questions or make the comments and have really good recourse with them, they're going to go to places and go around people who will allow them to say those things, but who won't [00:34:30] correct them, who will nurture those thoughts. and turn them into the kind of people that actually are dangerous to us.

[00:34:36] Shakura: It's really important to allow people to come to us and ask those questions that might make us roll our eyes, but they're coming to us because we're a safe place. And I'm not just talking, I'm not talking about strangers. I'm talking about people who are friends. You know, if they want to ask me about something about a female issue, Yeah, ask me if you want to ask me something about a black thing that's happening and you don't quite get it, or you have a certain thought about it.

[00:34:59] Shakura: [00:35:00] Let's talk about it. I might not like what you're saying and I might go, you know what, I can't believe you said that, but let's talk about it. Let's have the discourse. Let's know that we're operating out of a place of love. You know that just you having this thought isn't enough for me to leave our relationship behind.

[00:35:15] Shakura: I remember being in Panama and walking up the mountains. looking at, I don't know if you call it fields, but you know, plots of coffee beans. And, the gentleman who was taking us on this tour very, very nice man. He and his wife had invited us [00:35:30] into their home and, they were, just kind, loving, wonderful people.

[00:35:34] Shakura: And as we're walking up the hill, This is quite some time ago, and you'll know because of what I'm about to tell you. He says, well, you know, we're having a hard time of it in the States because, you know, that Obama, he's, you know, he's a Muslim the things that he's doing. And I looked at him and I looked at the gentleman who was with me, who was, you know, white man.

[00:35:52] Shakura: And, and I was like, wow, he actually said that to my face. Wow. He feels like we're, you know, we're getting [00:36:00] along now. Wow. And then I thought, I might never get the opportunity ever again to have a conversation. We're in this beautiful place, surrounded by nature. Why not have a conversation? And I said, where did you hear that?

[00:36:15] Shakura: And he said, well, it's all over the internet. I get emails about this all the time. You know where he's taken our country to. And I said, well, you know, he was born in Hawaii and he's not actually a Muslim. He's a Christian. And he goes, what? And I said, yeah, he's, he's a [00:36:30] Christian man. and he goes, I never heard that.

[00:36:32] Shakura: I said, yeah. And I said, you know, one of the most interesting things about email is that anybody can send it and they can say whatever they want. So you have to be careful, and that's why we read news from different places, from different sources. And then the gentleman that I was with actually said, Yeah, I listen to this news and I read these papers as well so that I can get a fuller view.

[00:36:57] Shakura: And the gentleman said, Oh, I never, [00:37:00] what is the name of that radio station? And how do I get that? We never could have had that conversation unless I decided that We were worth it, that we deserve that conversation. And he might still be someone who votes for someone who I might never want him to vote for.

[00:37:17] Shakura: He might still be somebody who believes that deep down inside, you know, Obama really is, Muslim. But he was open to hearing what I had to say. And I was open to hearing what he had [00:37:30] to say. That, to me, had value because I, earned, gained compassion for all these people that I keep hearing are voting for these people that I don't understand.

[00:37:42] Shakura: I can now think, well, maybe they're not bad people. Maybe they just don't understand where someone like me is coming from. Maybe their world is shaped in such a different place in such a different way that they can't see outside of it. Maybe we should be having more day to day [00:38:00] conversations rather than just saying, you're this, you're that, you believe this, you voted for so and such, you know, you're standing for this, and so therefore I can no longer talk to you.

[00:38:11] Shakura: What kind of world is that going to be?

[00:38:12] Rosalyn: I've been taking some sabbaticals from social media and, you know, I need it for gigs and for work and, you know, and I'm trying to really think of it. as a tool for that and not, kind of like you check out cute pictures of the nephews and stuff like that too.

[00:38:27] Rosalyn: But, really taking some, big breaks and, [00:38:30] it's really profound, The effect that it will have, and I know that this is something that's come up in a lot of our other conversations because it affects all these other parts of us too, you know, our, imposter syndrome and our comparativeness and all that stuff as well.

[00:38:42] Rosalyn: So I recommend it anyway, you're looking at it, but the thing that, you know, especially in this time of this kind of heightened, social. Conflicts that, it was so easy for me to then be in a room with people that I disagreed with, I found it a lot easier, to have [00:39:00] conversations with people.

[00:39:01] Rosalyn: It didn't have to be about the thing we were disagreeing about, but it was like, yeah, of course you're, you're a human being and I love you and I have compassion for you and I, I like who you are, you know? And so, taking away the screen that blares the thing that we disagree about over and over again, and we can still disagree about it.

[00:39:18] Rosalyn: But at the end of the day, when we're in that room together and, you know, looking at each other in the eyes and, it's a very different situation.

[00:39:24] Shakura: It is. And it's also about knowing, and this is very common for me. You know, I know how [00:39:30] someone thinks so I can have a certain level of a relationship with them. I just know how deep to make it and how grateful I am that they've let me know who they are. So that I don't take it to a place where I might be disappointed or my expectations for friendship might not be met, and that's, that's another part of, that whole acceptance.

[00:39:50] Shakura: You know, not everybody is your best friend, you ain't gotta have but two or three, you know, and they're interchangeable, you know, not everybody is, has to come to your house, [00:40:00] not everybody has to, you know, eat your food, you don't have to eat everybody's food. And that's something we learned during COVID too, isn't it?

[00:40:06] Shakura: Not everybody is that person,

[00:40:09] Rosalyn: Mm hmm.

[00:40:09] Shakura: you know, very valuable lessons.

[00:40:11] Rosalyn: Thank you so much for having this conversation with us. It's been so wonderful. and I, I'm glad I had, I was worried about having a conversation about having hard conversations and I found this to be really, really wonderful. So, thank you so much.

[00:40:26] Shakura: Thank you for having me. I always love talking to you and I'm glad [00:40:30] we had an opportunity to do so with, other people listening, which is kind of makes it awkward, but, you know, I was really thinking about that part of it, but I really appreciate you, um, making time for me. Thank you.

[00:40:42]

[00:40:48] Rosalyn: That's all for this episode, friends. The ReFolkUs Podcast is brought to you by Folk Music Ontario. Find out more by heading to folkmusicontario.org/refolkus. That's [00:41:00] R-E-F-O-L-K-U-S. The podcast is produced by Kayla Nezon and Rosalyn Dennett and mixed by Jordan Moore at The Pod Cabin. The opening theme is by King Cardiac, and the artwork is by Jaymie Karn.

[00:41:12] Rosalyn: Please give us a download, a like subscribe, rate and review to let us know you're listening.