The Art of Booking Pt. 1 - Calgary Folk Festival with Kerry Clarke

[00:00:00] Rosalyn: Hello, and welcome to season two of ReFolkUs, where we talk to artists and music industry professionals about building sustainable careers as creative workers with a focus on folk. I'm your host, Rosalyn Dennett.

[00:00:26] Rosalyn: Hello and welcome to [00:00:30] ReFolkUs. Today our guest is Kerry Clarke. Kerry is the Artistic director of the Calgary Folk Music Festival and the Winter Block Heater Festival. She serves on several non profit arts boards, many arts juries, is a proud part of RAD, which is the Western Roots Artistic Directors Group, Any Presenters, and is co founder of Rwanda's Kigali Ap Festival.

[00:00:49] Rosalyn: Community Radio was Kerry Clarke's entry into the independent music world 36 years ago, and she continues to produce and host weekly CKUA and CJSW radio programs when she's not traveling to conferences and festivals to enjoy music from a vast range of genres. Here's Kerry Clarke.

[00:01:06] Rosalyn: Hi, Kerry. How are you doing?

[00:01:15] Kerry: I'm good, Rosalyn. It's pretty nice in Calgary right now. It's like seven, eight degrees today, no snow.

[00:01:20] Rosalyn: Oh, I'm happy to hear that. I'm so excited that we get to talk today. It's not even a long time since I've seen you at not just the FMO conference, but, but several conferences [00:01:30] since then. But it's always really nice to catch up with you. We recently got back our surveys from the FMO conference and, you know, something that kept coming up, in those comments were, about how much folks appreciated a panel that you did at the conference that was about, booking. There were some other wonderful artistic directors there and folks just really appreciated the kind of candid conversation around, how artistic directors, put together their festival lineups.

[00:01:56] Rosalyn: So this is a series to kind of dive into some of that, [00:02:00] process and your process and find out a bit more about, uh, Calgary Folk Festival. So why don't we start off with just a, if you can tell us a little bit about the festival. Maybe you can kind of describe the, the setting a bit and the size and such.

[00:02:12] Kerry: Sure, yeah. We're going into our 45th year, and it is on the model of the Western Folk Festivals. They were started in the model of Estelle Klein and the Mariposa Folk Festival, and then Mitch Podolak, who was quite a, quite a character, started one in Winnipeg and then went from there and started [00:02:30] festivals along with some collaborators in Vancouver, Edmonton, and Calgary.

[00:02:34] Kerry: So we are in the model of the Western folk festivals and there are some in the East that are similar but the Western ones are particularly, you know, we're held an outdoor beautiful park, sometimes in the city as ours is, sometimes out of town with camping as, say, Winnipeg's is.

[00:02:47] Kerry: And we have a combination of concerts and collaborative sessions that I think started out as actual workshops where people were, you know, brought their fiddle along and were taught by somebody on stage. But ours are putting together a whole [00:03:00] bunch of artists into different styles and themes.

[00:03:02] Kerry: So basically we're a four day event on the last weekend of July, like I say, our 45th year. Beautiful outdoor setting downtown, we call it Princess Island Park. And we have six stages during the day and two in the evening. And then we also have a talk tent that has some comedy and some spoken word.

[00:03:18] Kerry: And sort of other roadside attractions and a family area and a stage there. So really there's about 120 unique performances over the weekend. You know, it's grown in small, steady steps. It started out as a two day [00:03:30] event. And like I say, it's now four days. So each evening, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, we have two stages and then during the day on Friday afternoon and Saturday and Sunday we have a combination of concerts and collaborative sessions, which again is the western festival model.

[00:03:44] Kerry: I realize there are some... festivals in Ontario that do the same thing. So it's really magical. It's not new or fresh that we're doing it, but other festivals in Canada or in Calgary, for sure, aren't doing this. And it gives artists an opportunity to be taken out of their comfort zones to meet other artists, because often people's [00:04:00] bios will say that they shared the stage with somebody, but really they didn't.

[00:04:03] Kerry: Like they might've been on a little stage over here and Sarah McLauchlin played in the evening and they never met. But this is actually literally artists on the same stage. That's what we love to do.

[00:04:13] Kerry: And the sound isn't always perfect. Somebody's amp might not be properly plugged in. Their guitar may be slightly out of tune in those things, but the audience loves it. And they love to see when people collaborate. And that's what we're looking for. So we're really looking for artists that are up for that and are good at that.

[00:04:29] Kerry: And a lot of Canadian artists that are going to be the host of those sessions. So that's the format of the festival. It's really magical. It's wonderful, especially when the weather's good. And, you know, I feel really lucky because it's the kind of atmosphere where people might come to see a larger, marquee artist, but it's a festival of discovery.

[00:04:47] Kerry: They leave loving somebody else because they pass them on a stage. It's not like when you're in a venue that's, you know, one room in another room and people don't necessarily see it. So it's a really, really ideal kind of performance situation that again is [00:05:00] very similar to Vancouver and Winnipeg and Edmonton.

[00:05:02] Kerry: I feel really privileged to be involved with a festival like that because it's a great experience for artists and audience. It's very egalitarian. You know, we don't have VIP seating. We don't have special tickets that you can buy. It's very much come, you know, park yourself in front of the stage, move around, see the artists that you want to see.

[00:05:20] Kerry: And like I say, it's a huge festival of discovery. So we're able to hire a lot of artists that aren't household names and it's from around the world. It's such a great [00:05:30] privilege to be in a role where you can hire artists that aren't very well known, that aren't household names, and that play really interesting music from all over the world. Because it is a really open-eared audience, and it's a format where people might come to see somebody, a marquee artist, and they might leave loving somebody from somewhere totally different in the world, or somewhere in Canada.

[00:05:50] Kerry: So it's a really, really amazing format, and a fairly unique format, even though we've been going for 45 years. Like I say, not necessarily unique in Canada, but unique certainly in [00:06:00] our, in our zone in, in Calgary.

[00:06:02] Rosalyn: Switching to like more of the booking process then, how do you discover these artists? How do you find, not necessarily the marquee artists, but the, less well known, folks that you're putting on your stages?

[00:06:12] Kerry: Well, as somebody once said, one of our volunteers once said, either we hunt them down or they hunt us down. And so it's really a combination. I say it's a very organic process, because like everything else in all of our worlds, how we discover things, combination of listening to radio, being on different streaming networks, going to [00:06:30] conferences, seeing artists, going to other festivals. Being pitched artists, listening to them when you can. It's all of those things. I keep lists and lists and lists. So I have a list of Canadian, local, and international artists. I have my own system of bolding and colouring that indicate whether somebody's kind of moving up the line to something.

[00:06:49] Kerry: It's a lot of it's a reminder because when you're putting together a line up, you know, we have limited budgets. So we're hiring about 70 artists each year and it's a bit of a puzzle. It's [00:07:00] an organic kind of puzzle. So, you know, we start with a budget of a certain amount. And for us, I've kind of learned over the years that we're spending about half of our budget on marquee artists.

[00:07:09] Kerry: And I would call those artists that sell sort of thousand plus tickets, hard tickets in this market. And so the rest is for everyone else on the budget. And you have to kind of put it together. There's some people that are going to be in the lower end of the pay scale. And some people in the higher end, you want a mix of genres and genders and approaches and styles.

[00:07:28] Kerry: And so sometimes, [00:07:30] you know, you'll be going along, you start with the artists that really excite you, that there's somebody that there was a real spark, you love something about their songwriting, there's a great turn of phrase, their composition, there's something just magical when you listen to them, that almost you, you don't feel like an artistic director being critical and saying I could hire this person or not. You just feel like a real listener that loves music, which is what I am and what most artistic directors are. So you start with those, you make some offers, and then some of those come through. And when they don't, sometimes you're looking for someone similar. You [00:08:00] take a pause at certain points because sometimes I feel like I'm at the bottom of the big snow drift and every time I poke my head up someone's shoveled another pile of snow on me and that's their job is to say hey this artist is great they should play.

[00:08:12] Kerry: But you kind of take a pause and you look at it and think oh crap it's I'm happy with it but there's not enough. Blues or bluegrass, or we have a lot of music from around the world, but it's more located in a certain area in a certain style. So then somebody pops up and you [00:08:30] think, wow, they really helped make this a different kind of thing.

[00:08:32] Kerry: You keep the collaborative sessions in mind because you're looking for people who are great and sometimes you hire someone and think, wow, I know they're friends with this person, or I think that they would do a really good job. With this other person, and I sometimes do that with the local artists as we sometimes book them after we've booked other people, and we think, who could they fit well with? as I was saying in the panel, and not to seem crass about it, but in a way, artists are our puzzle pieces. We're trying to put together an amazing puzzle, and they're our puzzle pieces. So I understand how artists look at [00:09:00] it and think, I'm really good, and I reached out to them, and I should be hired.

[00:09:03] Kerry: And they probably should be, some of them. But also like job applications, where it's like you might have a hundred people apply, and of those hundred, ten could probably do a brilliant job, and five could do an even more brilliant job, and you have to choose one. So, they're the puzzle pieces of the amazing puzzle that make it up, and so we're looking at them thinking, Okay, this person's going to fit in this puzzle this year.

[00:09:26] Kerry: Maybe they don't fit this year, maybe they fit another year. So it's [00:09:30] that kind of process, and then you're reviewing the budget, and then sometimes I just stop for a few minutes, because I do feel like I'm at the bottom of the snow drift, and you want to take some time to really, consider what's happening and, and what you need, and who's available to fit, fit that.

[00:09:45] Kerry: And we're very privileged, again, because there're so many great artists from around the world.

[00:09:48] Rosalyn: So let's give a conference, for example. I know that you're very generous with your time and going to showcase events and such. How do you like to be approached?

[00:09:56] Kerry: Yeah, not in the bathroom when I'm [00:10:00] peeing for someone to sing and showcase and then you come out and they ask you if you like their…..

[00:10:05] Rosalyn: Oh my God, has that happened?

[00:10:07] Kerry: Oh, it happens, yes. Oh, yes, it happened. It did.

[00:10:11] Kerry: I think speed meetings are the sort of devil we have to dance with. And sometimes they're really wonderful and sometimes they're really unpleasant. And I think those, if people just approach it as a conversation, as a get to know you, then that's lovely because they can only, spend so much time, even if it's eight minutes, with someone saying I'm really good and this is what my music [00:10:30] is and this is, it's just a get to know you situation.

[00:10:33] Kerry: Going to showcases, watching them, I think that sort of, I use the word organic a lot, but the organic interactions in the hallways where people are just, we're all humans. And I understand that it's really tough for artists because I feel like artists have to do a job application every 15 minutes so they have to pitch themselves and if they get that job, which might be one gig, that's one gig.

[00:10:57] Kerry: And then that gig is gone. I mean it may build on it and some artists [00:11:00] play 300 shows a year and so it works for them. But I do appreciate that artists have to be their own CEO, CFO, band leader. They have to be cheerful on stage. They have to present well, they have to be nice. They have to do a good job.

[00:11:13] Kerry: It's not easy. But I guess this is what they signed up for. And on this side, I don't like being called a buyer, but that's what we are, we're trying to find what works. So, I think in the speed meetings, there's only so much you can spend time of the pressure in telling who you are and that kind of thing.

[00:11:28] Kerry: And then some of it is, [00:11:30] just having a nice conversation. I mean, sometimes depending on what happens in the speed meetings, like I've done speed meetings all over the world. I can.

[00:11:37] Kerry: In Venezuela, for instance, and sometimes I find I just end up giving them some tips and tricks as opposed to it's necessarily a conversation about them playing the festival in the future. So in Venezuela, I'd say, have you played in the neighboring areas? Have you played in Colombia? Have you played around Venezuela?

[00:11:53] Kerry: Like it doesn't really make sense to leapfrog all the way to Canada. If you haven't had that experience locally, I recommend that [00:12:00] people make sure that their music is being played on the radio on CKWAY on CGSW on campus stations, CBC, because a lot of us are listening to music there. And so it's good to have a nice conversation.

[00:12:11] Kerry: And then if you follow up, those sort of organic connections are nice, but not the ones where people come up to you and shove the CD in your face and are desperate. And I understand why people are like that, but it doesn't really help them because often what you'll find is someone avoids you like the plague.

[00:12:25] Kerry: They just don't want to run into you because it's exhausting. I understand. It's exhausting for artists, but it's exhausting for people that are doing the, programming to be approached all the time by people and, be pitched at all the time.

[00:12:39] Kerry: We're all at the conference. We all know why we're there. So people don't have to say to you, I want to play at your festival because you know that. so it's best to just be as casual as possible.

[00:12:47] Kerry: And so, Rosalyn, to answer your question about conferences, you do all the things, you do speed meetings, you interact with artists. You're sometimes introduced to artists by other artists. You sometimes become friends with artists and if [00:13:00] you hang out with people and you get to know them, I think in business that's always the best thing in terms of a future relationship.

[00:13:06] Rosalyn: What do you like to see in a showcase? Do you have some tips for people, when they're performing a showcase of what you like to see?

[00:13:13] Kerry: So in a showcase, firstly, the best thing is if the person who's organized it has done a really good job of making sure the sound is good and the showcases are on time and hopefully the vibe of the room is good because that really helps the artists and the presenters. showcases can be pretty high pressure [00:13:30] situations, so I can understand that it's tough for artists because there is kind of a make or break.

[00:13:34] Kerry: Is probably how they're seeing it. And so for a showcase, I guess I'm ideally wanting to see it almost as a fan and as a concert. So what kind of concert would they do for a regular audience. And to try, if they can, pretend that that's what we are as a regular audience and be as natural as they can. Try and represent who they really are. Which sometimes for artists I think means that they feel like they have to go, this is my blues song, this is my country song. I don't think they [00:14:00] have to do that and I didn't see that at FMO because I saw people who were fairly evolved in their careers and so they were being who they were.

[00:14:06] Kerry: So just putting their best foot forward. Performing as well as they possibly can and trying to treat the audience there as if they're natural fans and natural audience as opposed to presenters. and just, you know, try and play what they see as their best songs, their strongest songs, and try to play with a band that represents.

[00:14:25] Kerry: What they might be able to tour, so that that's what the audience understands.[00:14:30]

[00:14:30] Rosalyn: For artists that are self represented, who don't have an agent, doing pitches for them? Can you explain to me, like, what a good pitch email from an artist would be? Like, what would you like to see in that email that would compel you to want to check them out?

[00:14:45] Kerry: Well, starting with the header, so that it makes it clear who they are, as opposed to putting the header being Calgary Folk Music Festival, because if I go to find it, it's going to be harder. I don't know how other artistic directors keep track of these things, but I do, I file all the submissions I get by email, and they're not really submissions, [00:15:00] because what we say is, if you'd like to get on our radar, then send us an email, and basically it says, a short bio about yourself, no attachments, links to key music and videos.

[00:15:12] Kerry: So I think it's just if the bio is well written, if it gives you a sense of who this person is, if they avoid the ‘I'm the love child of Joni Mitchell and Neil Young and Miles Davis’, because you're not…and if they just are able to say who they are. And kind of what we can expect, what the flavor of their music is.

[00:15:30] Kerry: Like for me, I'm not looking for who they've opened for necessarily, or shared the stage with, because as I mentioned earlier, often they actually haven't shared a stage with somebody. And sometimes people say, I've opened for so and so and so and so, and I think, well, I haven't even hired those people.

[00:15:43] Kerry: So getting a sense of the flavor of their music. What they're like, what they have to offer. If you do children's programming as well as a concert, you know, and adult programming, say that if you have a comedy, thing you do, if you, love to collaborate, if you have options [00:16:00] of the different formats that you can play in, all those things are helpful. but something that's sort of quick and dirty, like. Don't make us work too hard. Don't send us away to a website that may or may not be good. Put things in the email. A quick link where you can listen to a key song or look at a key live video is important. but the whole thing is just, it's about volume.

[00:16:20] Kerry: I'm probably getting up to 20 or 30 pitches per day. And I send back an email to people just saying, Hey, got your stuff. We'll try and listen. Here's our programming process. But quite honestly, [00:16:30] that's sometimes all I do. Like the percentage of them that I listen to is not high. So a lot of it is just a building process.

[00:16:37] Kerry: So if you've seen somebody play at FMO or Folk Alliance, yes, it's great to follow up with an email and just saying, Hey, nice to meet you or didn't get to meet you. But. I showcased at FMO and that's really good to follow up and to follow up once, not a whole bunch of times. Even if you have a bunch of updates, it's best not to barrage people, but just to follow up in a professional manner, say hi, and just say that you're [00:17:00] interested in playing, or if you have an update, like if you have a tour that's bringing you out west and you have a gap hour weekend, it never hurts to hear that, even though that May not result in a booking.

[00:17:10] Kerry: So I think just being as informative and succinct as possible, it's really the songs that we're looking for. And it doesn't hurt if you say, you know, I'm a queer artist, if people are looking for queer artists, then that might pique their interest, if that's the case, and if that's how you present yourself.

[00:17:25] Kerry: If you're Indigenous, a lot of us are looking for a certain percentage of [00:17:30] Indigenous artists, so it doesn't hurt. Just something about you that makes you unique and makes you stand out. But like I say, ultimately for me, it's about the songs. It's about whether you take a quick listen, and often it's a minute long listen, whether the lyrics or the vocal delivery or the composition somehow catches your attention.

[00:17:47] Kerry: And just because it doesn't catch my attention doesn't mean it's Not good. It just means that it might not be my particular taste. But often, you know, when Basha Boulat of the world came along, when she put out her first album, a bunch of us booked Basha [00:18:00] Boulat, and it was, by coincidence, not designed.

[00:18:03] Kerry: We all heard something in Basha. So, often when somebody has something special, a lot of people will hear it, and we'll often hire that person.

[00:18:11] Rosalyn: Interesting. Is there a specific time of year that you are kind of more engaged with, booking, local or regional or kind of more up and coming acts?

[00:18:22] Kerry: It varies, but... For me, sort of starting in the fall and through to when we finished booking in February, but the [00:18:30] majority of our booking for me is done before the new year. And usually after the new year, We only have spots for some more Marquee artists and Canadians. We're full up with Americans because, man, we get pitched to a lot of American artists.

[00:18:43] Kerry: And I, as an aside, I wish that American festivals hired as many Canadians as Some Canadian festivals hire Americans. But, for me, I think the fall. is the best time. Um, but again, it's sort of an organic process. And since we started doing the Block Heater Festival, sometimes I'm not as engaged in the summer festival [00:19:00] until I finish booking Block Heater.

[00:19:01] Kerry: So until around early November. Um, that's just for me. I mean, I find some artistic directors are booking earlier and earlier, and it just depends on the artistic director, but probably the fall is a good time. And that's when a lot of the conferences are. And Back to earlier questions, certainly seeing an artist live makes a lot of difference.

[00:19:18] Kerry: So, if an artist is performing somewhere like FMO, they've got a real leg up because they've had a chance to meet somebody and have a conversation with them sometimes, and to be seen live. I mean, sometimes it can work against you [00:19:30] because if the live performance doesn't appeal, then maybe they're off your list for now.

[00:19:33] Kerry: But really, being seen live and being at a conference and showing people that you're serious about your career and that you're out there is a huge step forward. And so following up by email is helpful. And I know for us we do book independent artists without representation. it's helpful to have representation, but even if you do, sometimes you're with an agency that has a hundred artists and you might think, well, they haven't pitched me to that festival and that's why I haven't been booked, but it's hard for them because they can only do [00:20:00] so much to pitch everyone on the roster. it's just not an exact science,

[00:20:03] Rosalyn: Yeah, you know, that, that's a big reason of doing this, series is that it is so particular to the festival, to the director, really interested in, getting to know you and, and your method.

[00:20:13] Rosalyn: And listeners will be really interested in getting a glimpse into your process and, and your, your approach to this all. I wanted to bring up Block Heater because it's really cool that you guys have that, like two festivals on, on kind of either side of the [00:20:30] year. Are you looking at like a kind of a different process when you're booking Block Heater versus the summer festival?

[00:20:35] Kerry: Somewhat, just because I'm booking more to the venue, and the venue of Prince's Island is pretty open, and when I book somebody, I sometimes have an idea where they're going to be. I probably know that their concert might be during the day, or it might be on the evening more party stage, and that they'll be doing collaborative sessions, but I can book quite a few artists and not know exactly where they'll be until we get into programming them on the different stages, whereas Block Heater is very much booked to venue, [00:21:00] because right now it's in indoor venues, and it changes every year, so.

[00:21:03] Kerry: If a venue is 200 people and you sit down, I'll be looking for a different artist than if it's 1200 people in a standing room or 1700 in a concert hall. So it's different in that way, but it's similar in the sense that we're still looking for a real variety. We're looking for, pretty much, a gender balance.

[00:21:19] Kerry: We're looking for lots of world music, lots of different sounds, a combination of, you know, roots, indie, folk, funk, blues, bluegrass, all kinds of world music styles, so it's got a similar [00:21:30] kind of variety. it's a little more based, or it has been a little more based on artists that are touring at the time because it's harder to afford them if they're not.

[00:21:39] Kerry: And in the summer we're also not sort of plucking people just from wherever they are and then paying for their flights, but there are more people touring in the summer, so that makes it a bit tougher. But it's truncated. I tend to have to do it. We're hoping it'll be different next year that we'll actually know our dates in our venue by April, but for the last few years, we haven't really known the [00:22:00] dates and venue until September.

[00:22:01] Kerry: So it's this truncated process, but looking for a similar diversity of artists looking for again, a combination of emerging artists and icons and upstarts really, except for it's harder to sell the upstarts in a venue by venue ticketed event than it is in, in one large venue.

[00:22:18] Rosalyn: So with kind of booking process for Block Heater in mind, if people know that they're going to be in your neighborhood, do you recommend folks kind of reach out and let you know about that?

[00:22:28] Kerry: Oh, 100%.[00:22:30] Both with the summer festival, but definitely with Blockheater. If they're touring in February, Then we definitely want to know, and I, I let people know about that. Um, we sometimes will book people in Block Heater, and then also book them the same, the same artist that summer, because Block Heater almost is a little bit of a testing ground for us, and if they do well at Block Heater, then sometimes we'll have them come back for the summer festival.

[00:22:49] Rosalyn: The thing that I think is really neat about, that and having that, you know, the potential opportunity to, Do either or, or maybe both is that [00:23:00] artists are, able to, potentially kind of grow that market, you know, it's not just like you play Calgary once and then, you're done, you know, there's a, and obviously there's other venues and other festivals, other opportunities in Calgary, but it's nice to be able to grow the audience, you know, and, and kind of develop that relationship with the audience at Calgary Folk Festival.

[00:23:17] Kerry: And I think that that's a really good point, as we're really looking to continue relationships with artists, and that doesn't mean even if we can't book them again and again at the festival, or even never book them. We hope to have relationships with [00:23:30] artists, and I realize that the booking part is the most important part for people, but to keep up with people's careers, to have communication with them, to maybe recommend them to other festivals, you know, we do reference letters sometimes.

[00:23:41] Kerry: I have a couple of radio shows, so I'll play the music on the air. We're hoping that the relationships go beyond the simple sort of transactional, you played at our festival, or you played at our event. And like I say, I know for artists that's kind of hard to hear because really their goal is to play live in front of audiences and to advance their careers and to sell their merchandise and we totally get [00:24:00] that.

[00:24:00] Kerry: It's just not always the reality. So hopefully we're keeping relationships with people and keeping communications up

[00:24:05] Rosalyn: I just wanted to expand on the radio aspect of it. If people already can't tell by your beautiful radio voice, you have a long history with producing radio programs. you mentioned earlier that it can be helpful to, engage kind of local radio where you want to play.

[00:24:22] Rosalyn: Can you maybe expand a bit on that or maybe like the importance of local radio and I, I say that because maybe in the [00:24:30] streaming era, sometimes radio might get overlooked a little bit. can you speak a bit about what role that has?

[00:24:35] Kerry: Yeah, sure. I mean, I'm a little biased because I'm in Alberta and we have CKUA and it's a very unique station, and it plays pretty much all, mostly independent music in a lot of the genres that folk festivals book. So, you know, roots, indie, world music, blues, all the different styles, all the different sort of non commercial styles.

[00:24:54] Kerry: And they have a chart. And if you get to the top of the chart, as some artists have from across Canada, I think [00:25:00] that it doesn't hurt. You're getting a fair amount of play and you're sometimes getting more coverage on somewhere like CKUA. The listenership is amazing of CKUA. There are people that are really engaged with music.

[00:25:09] Kerry: There are people that are likely to go out and support live music. And so I think it's really important that you get heard by people. and then, you know, a lot of the announcers, some of them have other roles in the community. And so like, for instance, doing my weekly show at CK way, I have actually discovered artists that I have booked at the festival and then Sometimes I'm pitched artists and I play the music on the radio and I may or may [00:25:30] not. be able to fit them in programming wise, so I think It's really important to develop an audience and festivals are one way to develop that audience. But touring is getting played on the radio, any kind of coverage that you get.

[00:25:41] Kerry: I'm also biased because CGSW in Calgary, where I also do a show, is one of the strongest campus radio stations in the country. And they have an amazing record library. They also have charts And people get played. On CJSW, we've seen a resultant increase in their audience when they come and play live.

[00:25:58] Kerry: I think that getting your [00:26:00] music played on the radio, whether it's a commercial station, if you fit there, or whether it's CBC or one of the campus or community stations, it also signifies that you're out there and you're putting out music. you're serious about your career.

[00:26:11] Kerry: You know, it's tough because when I do the one to ones, and sometimes people's music is nowhere to be found on the internet, uh, it isn't played on radio, and I think, you're kind of putting the cart before the horse, you're trying to get people's attention, but you're not really getting people's attention.

[00:26:25] Kerry: So, it's about... Touring if you can, being a road warrior, getting played on the radio, [00:26:30] developing crowds, playing at festivals, playing other gigs. It's about all those things stacked up together, kind of like marketing, where you, you want to advertise in all kinds of different places. So the radio's important, and like I said, for me, I've discovered artists by doing a show and artists are developing an audience through the radio that is often really, really engaged in live music.

[00:26:51] Rosalyn: That's really good advice. I would add to that. the neat thing, you know, you're, very. Privileged by your location and what, access do you have to, incredible [00:27:00] radio there, but the neat thing is that now with the digital area, I listen to CKUA all the time, right?

[00:27:06] Rosalyn: I can just say to my little Home robot, you know, play CKUA and it just comes up and I can listen as though I'm sitting in your living room in Calgary So I my little piece of advice for folks would be that if you're interested in Getting that kind of coverage out in Alberta listen to the Alberta radio stations and see what they're playing and see what shows vibe with, with the kind of music that you're making.

[00:27:28] Rosalyn: Cause ultimately if you, [00:27:30] you know, doing that little bit of research, you're going to, get to a pitch a little bit stronger.

[00:27:34] Kerry: Yeah. The other advice I have for artists is to make friends. We probably already friends with a lot of other artists. Artists can be your best advocate. Sometimes, you know, you're playing in a band, you're a Ben Whiteley, and I don't know that he'd ever go solo. He probably doesn't need to. But you're a Ben Whiteley.

[00:27:49] Kerry: You play with everyone. you're a great tour manager. You're a great player. Whiteley's played our festival more than anybody else because he's such a great sideman. Be in other people's bands, collaborate,[00:28:00] make friends with artists. if you're from Alberta and you sell a decent number of tickets in Alberta and you make friends with someone from Ontario, they can come and open for you here and gain an audience.

[00:28:09] Kerry: And you can do a trade and you can go to Ontario and open for them. collaborate, like I say, I think fellow artists are your kind of one of your best networks and it's also probably one of the most fun because people who really really love to play and really really love to do what they do are probably playing with other artists and I think that's the biggest piece of advice is if you're doing this because you think you're going to be famous, [00:28:30] You maybe should stop because you're probably going to be very frustrated if you're doing this because you can't help yourself you love it You're an artist.

[00:28:37] Kerry: You can't help but play you can't help but create music then keep doing it and be nice and play well and learn and do all the right things and Probably something will happen for you, even though there's a lot of artists trying to do the same thing, but do it because you love it and because you're an artist and you're driven to, and I know it's frustrating.

[00:28:56] Kerry: I've seen artists that are in that category that are really good that [00:29:00] aren't touring as much. It's a slog, but like I say, do it for the love of it and it's. The cards could line up for you if it's right and if you're doing something really interesting and that appeals to people and that resonates.

[00:29:11] Rosalyn: Well, I can't think of a better way to sign off than that. I think that's really, hopeful and encouraging. for folks, you know. Kerry, thank you so much for being here. This has been, really, really wonderful to talk to you and, and I'm sure we will, see you again soon.

[00:29:26] Rosalyn: [00:29:30]

[00:29:32] Rosalyn: That's all for this episode. Friends The Refolkus Podcast is brought to you by Folk Music Ontario. Find out more by heading to folkmusicontario.org/refolkus. That's R-E-F-O-L-K-U-S. The podcast is produced by Kayla Nezon and Rosalyn Dennett and mixed by Jordan Moore at The Pod Cabin. The opening theme is by King Cardiac, and the artwork is by Jaymie Karn.

[00:29:56] Rosalyn: Please give us a download, a like subscribe, rate, and [00:30:00] review to let us know you're listening.