Getting the Gig with Ben Whiteley

[00:00:00] Rosalyn: Hello and welcome to Refocus. Our guest today is Ben Whiteley. Ben is a Toronto born bassist and multi-instrumentalist who's born into a family of professional musicians. By 18, he was performing regularly with his father, Canadian roots, artists, and producer Ken Whiteley.

And since then, Ben has recorded and performed internationally with revered artists such as Baja Buk, Julia Jacqueline, the Weather Station, Sarah Harmer, Hannah Georges, Tim Bakker, Fred Pan, and Raffi. He has performed on multiple Juno Award-winning and Polaris shortlist records, and has performed on NPR R'S Tiny Desk concerts.

Holland, Jimmy Kimmel, Austin City Limits, K E X P Q on C, bbc, and most major international folk and rock festivals. Welcome Ben. How are you doing?

[00:00:45] Ben: Good. Thanks for having me.

[00:00:47] Rosalyn: So Ben, what was, your first gig?

[00:00:49] Ben: My first gig ever.

[00:00:51] Rosalyn: Yeah, what was your first gig? I.

[00:00:52] Ben: Well, I guess my first technical, like public performance was in middle school at, I went to an alternative middle school in Toronto and we had a cafe, like we put on, so what we called the Delta Cafe, which was basically a talent night of a bunch of 12 and 13 year olds.

And my rock band played three songs And that was my first performance. But my first paid gig was when I was 14 at the Rivoli in Toronto. And it was opening for a band called Blurton Confronted by Ian Blaton. And, there was a ho a Leafs hockey game, playoff game happening when their CD release was booked.

So they decided to book an afternoon. Matt and a show, as an option for their fans to not compete with the hockey game until they got,

[00:01:39] Rosalyn: real Canadian move.

[00:01:40] Ben: a real Canadian move. It was a very Canadian event. and, we at two o'clock and it was, it was thrilling.

[00:01:47] Rosalyn: I mean, that's a big stage. That's a big stage to have a debut gig on.

[00:01:51] Ben: It was huge. Sunday afternoon on Queen Street.

[00:01:55] Rosalyn: from there on that springboard debut into the life of musicianship, I, No, your, your father very well. We've had the chance to, play together in his group, the legendary Mr. Ken Whiteley. like, did you get your sea legs as a side player performing with him or were you primarily playing with other groups?

[00:02:18] Ben: Well, I mean, it kind of started fairly organically for me. I, I caught the bug of playing music when I was, when I was about 13 years old in this rock band when I got to high school, I realized there were so many different kinds of music that were happening in so many different groups, and I started playing with as many bands as I possibly could.

I was playing in the orchestra, I was playing in the jazz band. I would play in, played in hip hop bands. I played in the, there was a bunch of Cuban kids at my school that I played in the Cuban band in rock bands and bluegrass band. Like literally any band I could play in, I would be playing in And then my dad, one summer, we would go on family vacations to folk festivals where he was playing, and that would sort of dictate our summer plans. So if he had festivals in BC we would go out there and hang out between festivals. And my mom was a teacher, so she had the summers off. So it was, made a lot of sense as a family to just go wherever he went and then spend time there.

And the summer I turned 17, or actually I turned 18, I was 17 and then turned 18. He he was like, Hey, do you want to play with me and I'll pay you? And uh, initially I, I was like, no. then eventually was like, well, actually I kind of need a summer job. So I was like, sure, that sounds great.

[00:03:30] Rosalyn: Why did you initially say no?

[00:03:31] Ben: oh, I just, I felt, I mean, could, because I did grow up in a musical family, which I love dearly and I'm grateful for, obviously. But as a, a teenager girl, Every teenager is trying to explore and find their individuality. And I felt a bit apprehensive about being associated with my family. I mean, in the folk music community in Canada, people would always come up and ask me like, what instrument I played and just assumed so many things about me.

And I wasn't super into that because it, it felt like they were putting me in a box before they even knew who I was and met me. So that never feels good for anybody. was my initial hesitation. and then eventually I was like, okay, then I started getting into folk music too.

And, so I was excited to see and play. With and be at festivals with bands that I was, was pretty into at the time. So I was, I was pretty excited about it. And we did a whole summer's worth of, cakes and it was, chaos, but it was really like, I, I was really thrown into the deep end.

It was a real sink or swim situation where I would find myself on these like workshops, which probably most of the podcast listeners know about, but it's these sort of in the round or jam session shows that happen at folk festivals where they put a bunch of different artists together and often there's collaboration and jamming and very cool musical experiences happen.

But as like a 17 or 18 year old who really didn't know a ton about, improvising and my ears weren't great, I couldn't play my ear super, super well at that point, but it was like, okay, I have to learn. Fast because I'm on stage in front of thousands of people and I'm the only bass player on this workshop, and somebody just points at me and says, you're coming at the bridge.

And you're like, okay, I'm gonna try And, was, it was definitely a few, there were some messy moments, but, that's how you learn, you know, and you also learn as a musician, like it really forces you to, to decide like, okay, how am I gonna make music out of this?

What do I know? What do I not know? What are the choices I have? So it was a, it was an incredible learning experience for sure.

there was definitely a lot of messy moments in that, that first few summers of playing, cause I really, my ears weren't super developed. And I, as an accompanist, when you're playing, especially folk music or any sort of tra music that has a tradition, you, you learn quickly what the different possible moves are.

When you hear somebody play a certain line or change to a different chording version, you, you learn where those chords go and then, and you do it enough and you realize, oh, it's either gonna go to the four quarter, the two quarter, the, you learn the different moves. And so just playing with people constantly was the best way to learn, learn that stuff.

[00:06:20] Rosalyn: I feel like, you've then paid it forward because when I have had the pleasure of sharing the stage with you, you know, you're honestly one of my absolute favorite people to play with. Cuz you're a joy to be on stage with, and I feel like I've learned a ton about performing and about being a side player from playing with you.

And you said a couple words. Earlier that kind of stuck out and reminded me of why I like playing with you so much. And you know, one of them was like presence, like just being present and like keeping your head up and, you know, I feel like you're always in that moment with everyone.

[00:06:56] Ben: Yeah.

[00:06:57] Rosalyn: when, when you're performing and when you're playing, you're, you're right there on stage and you're not, you know, kind of head down in the corner. You're, you're making eye contact, you're really present with everyone. And you also have like a incredible joy about you when you play. I love, you know, playing all the right notes, but, there's also like a special moment where like, you mess up and you look at each other and you're like, oh no, we all know what happened, but it's okay and we're gonna just laugh about it.

And now this is fun and I'm not scared anymore. And, it's supportive, you know, as another player on stage, I feel supported by. the joy and presence that you bring to that.

[00:07:29] Ben: that's something I really, honestly, like, one of the big lessons I learned from playing with my dad, you know, I remember that first summer I was just terrified and I was. Insisting that he follow a set list. And the sort of musical environment that he came out of was playing, which is a very different landscape than it is now, but it was, it used to be very, very common to have three set bar gigs that paid well.

And you would play at a bar from like Tuesday to Sunday, three sets a night and a matinee on Saturday. so he came from an experience where you were just on stage for hours and hours and you could just play and. Improvising a set list and responding to the crowd was part of the success of doing that.

And when I say success, I mean being a successful performer, being able to communicate with an audience and have a shared experience with an audience. And so he really grew up in that. And it's so different from the way so many performers are trained now, where you're fine tuning a show and it's like theater now.

Because that's kind of the only way you're gonna make something that's marketable and special. And it, and I love doing that cuz it's also a beautiful artistic expression in and of itself. every time I play with my dad, like his ability to change and shift and if he's feeling something longer, He plays longer.

And if he feels him shorter, he ends it sooner. Or if he changes a set list, he changes, puts different songs on. And so if you are gonna be doing that, there has to be room for making mistakes. I remember just being so like, terrified of me. Like what happens if I ma I remember like actually just straight up asking like, what happens if I make a mistake?

Like, what do I do? And he's like, we look at each other and we laugh because it's fine. You know, it's like, I, I mean, I have, I say to a lot of my friends when I'm on tour, it's like, no one's on the operating table. You know what I mean? Like, we're playing music. It's, entertainment. we're bringing something to people after they've worked a long day.

After they've worked a long week, had a long year, and it's the summer and they're at a festival, or it's where they're at a club and it's Friday night and it's so easy to lose perspective on what the point of your job is. You know, and, and when I say entertainment, I'm not saying that to diminish the art and the artistic expression and the communication, right?

Like that's, that is what we're doing. We're communicating something. But at the end of the day, if we're not having fun, taking joy, taking pleasure, taking pride in our work and doing it in a way that feels good for everybody, we should do something else. Like we should get a different job, because you can make a hell of a lot more money doing something else.

[00:10:14] Rosalyn: You also, in addition to performing, I've noticed that you also tend to take on other. of more, you know, supportive roles in groups. Can you explain a little bit about, you know, some of the ways that you've kind of diversified your role as a musician?

[00:10:30] Ben: I mean, yeah, like I started tour managing, the first tour I did was tour managing Basha, bk, and. I had been playing with her for a bunch of years and she had had different tour managers come and go. And that's what happens, you know, a lot of tour manager's contract work, you know, you do a tour and then you're busy or whatever.

And there was one tour where she didn't have a tour manager and just started assuming a lot of the roles of a tour manager and before the next tour, I was kinda like, do you wanna just give me a little extra money and then I can just do this and it'll be official or whatever. And because it is helpful when you're on tour as an artist to have somebody who is the point of conduct that's not you.

Like, you, you, you can do it as, as an artist for sure. And there's, I've seen lots of people who are super capable, but to have somebody else who can kind of be the bad guy Is helpful so I started, doing that and then, you know, the one thing leads to another and somebody's like, Hey, you can do this.

I heard you can do this, can you do this? And then I started tour managing for the weather station when, when Tamara got got to a point where she needed that extra support, you know. and then Julia Jacklyn's manager heard that I tour manager and played bass. And, like, let's be honest, like the profit margins and music are so small, especially touring, and often you're operating at a loss.

So it just saves money for the artist if there's only one bed, there's only one per diem. It saves money. and especially when I started doing it, it was at a much smaller level. Like we didn't have a sound engineer on the road either or any other crew.

So, I started doing that and, and I love it. It's just a different part of my brain that I use to do that, and it's a lot of work, but I find it fun challenge and, and also growing up in it and touring with a lot of different bands has given me a lot of perspective on what's required to make a tour and make a day run smoothly.

also being a musician and playing in the band too, I kind of have a sense of how the band's feeling and what's gonna help that. I've done a lot of tours where I'm just a bass player and it's interesting to learn. Everybody's styles are a different tour of management styles are different and.

it's been a really great experience to have and to add to my skillset. Because, you know, as a musician, that's something I learned growing up in is that like no musician does one thing really, and especially side people, even like friend people. And, and, and you, you look at somebody's career and you're like, how are they making money?

And then you realize, oh, they're also a luthier. Or like, oh, they're also play, they're also a side person. Or it's like, oh, they have this really great like singer songwriter career and they write music for film. And it's like, and I just grew up in the art that almost like, it's not like, like kind of blue collar mentality of being an artist where it's like, okay, you want to be an artist, great.

no one's going to give you anything. And so you kind of have to make your own work and it takes a certain sense of. Awareness to realize what skills you have and what you can offer people and how you can get by. everyone's different, right?

Like some people teach a lot and have like a huge teaching roster addition to performing.

[00:13:41] Rosalyn: You mentioned in, when you were first starting out, you took all the gigs that were gettable Yeah. I feel like now I, you know, I'm sure you get, get more offers for gigs than you can take. how do you manage that schedule? Because you do play with, different acts and you're still kind of juggling different, projects.

How do you, how do you prioritize or how do you manage that kind of, that kind of schedule?

[00:14:03] Ben: that's a, I I'm glad you asked that question cuz it's like, it's something that I talk to a lot of my side people, friends about, and especially people that actually have like, in air quotes, like good gigs, you know, because a lot of people assume actually that I'm away and don't call me.

And so it's a real like weird feaster famine kind of job where it's like I can have years where I'm just. Booked every day. And then I'll be home and have like two gigs and I'm for a whole season and I'm just like sitting at home and I'm like, I'm not just sitting at home, but I'm not working. But people, and, and I'll run in people at, at shows and stuff and they'll be like, what are you, who are you on tour with right now?

I'm capable of your home. And I'm like, I've been home for three months. Like, you know,

[00:14:58] Rosalyn: Didn't you get the memo? Yeah.

[00:15:01] Ben: so it's a weird thing to balance, you know? I kind of have, the way I've managed my career is I kind of have like a couple of bands that are like my main gigs that kind of take priority.

But those gigs are often getting booked, much further out than the smaller pickup gigs. And recording sessions as well. So often, like I'll know what's happening six months out from like a bigger gig. But the, the smaller gigs, I won't know that, you know, the smaller tours and stuff. So it's just a balancing act.

I mean, you know, some people do first come first serve no matter, no matter what. Some people just go wherever the money is the best and they just like bail on people all the time and are constantly trying to get the most money. Some people,

[00:15:51] Rosalyn: How does that work for them?

[00:15:52] Ben: I mean, sometimes it works well, honestly, like, because it's like I've seen friends like have like really big career opportunities. And they turn them down cause they have like a, a gig that pays them like $50 in their, and I'm like, dude, what are you doing?

Like you just got asked to do this thing that could turn into like a career gig and you just bailed on it. You know, cuz you have a gig at, at your local pub. It's like, so it's like a weird, it's a thing to balance right? As a side person. Cuz it's like you're your own business as a side person.

And you have to make sure you're trustworthy. And p people book you, they have you, but also, like, they might understand if the gig's big enough, so you kinda have to like, some side people do it different, differently, you know, there's no, I, I don't think there's one right or wrong way.

You know what I mean? Like, and you have to look at what you want as your, from yourself too, right? Like do you want to be on the road all the time? What's your, what's your goal as like a career person? You know, obviously you don't, you want to maintain good relationships with everybody because it is word of mouth and it is reputation.

So I, I don't really have a straight answer for you on that. cuz there isn't really one you have to sort of look at the situation. I think, you know, cuz if it's like one gig, you have one gig in the way of like a month long tour, it's kind of like you need to, there's like, at a certain level you're like, well, I need to make money to live.

You know, and it's, It's gotten harder because everything's more expensive now for everybody. And I'm, I honestly, I'm really feeling that mentality shift in the music community where like people aren't taking as crazy risks because they have to make money, you know, to live, to pay their rent.

So, I don't know.

[00:17:39] Rosalyn: how do you say no, but keep the gig? You know, I feel like sometimes people are afraid to say no to something because they feel like if they say no, You know, but it can, it can be really stressful cause you have that, that fear of like, if I don't do this, I'll, I'll lose it.

You know, and they won't ask me again. How do you, how do you say no, but, keep people asking.

[00:18:02] Ben: That's a great question. And the answer is you might lose the gig. Like, it's just kind of that simple. It's like I have subbed out of gigs cuz I had a scheduling conflict and then I've lost a gig. You know, I have been that sub where they're like, oh, my bass player can't do this tour. Can you do this one week?

And then, you know, a year later I get a call and it's like, okay, now you're our bass player. And it's like, oh,

okay. You know, I mean, who knows what happens in those situations. So I mean, I think from like an practical perspective, you know, if, if you're a side per person and you ha are booked and somebody calls you and, Like, it depends whether the person you've can play, you have a history with them or not.

You know, I, I always think communication when it comes to something that's not, like rehearsals at 5:00 PM tomorrow, it should be done on the phone. Always, or in person. I just feel like so much communication is lost and so much communication nuance is lost in emails and, and texts.

I think, I think it's a terrible way to communicate especially about this because these relationships are emotional, because music and art is emotional. And I think if you can't respect that, like I think some people have a tendency to get too business, honestly, about it. And they, they are just like, can you do this?

No. And it's like, okay. Because the thing is from a, this is maybe something to, communicate to fellow side people to remember, but it's like when an artist calls you, it's like it's their art. Like, it's like their baby. It's like the most important thing and it's like part of their identity and they're asking you to participate in the creation and support of this thing that they've been making and dreaming about and spending all this time on.

So for some artists to ask somebody to say, Hey Ben, can you come on play the show with me? It's actually like you, they're asking you to bring you into their world that they're, and help you create their world. So to say no sometimes actually means like, is a big deal for them. Cause they've maybe worked up the courage to ask you to play with them.

So that's the way I feel like on the phone, it's always better. just to communicate more and, and to say no, that doesn't mean that the gig is never gonna happen again. You know? I think like just to not lose, not in air post again, lose the gig. like I think if you can true to yourself and, and, and kind and communicative, you're gonna stay, you're gonna stay in the mix for future gigs because I'm like, oh man, that person was super nice and they actually seemed like they wanted to be a part of this thing, but they just couldn't for other reasons.

So maybe I'll ask them in the future. And, and the other thing too is that like, and this is another aside, but like you develop relationships with people, it's actually much rarer for me to get a cold call. From a random person I've never met than it is for somebody I know and at I'm at least like, friendly with.

Because again, like for an artist to bring you into their world and help you create something that they're, they've been working on, they would much rather do what somebody they know and have a vibe from than somebody who's a total stranger.

[00:21:29] Rosalyn: let's dig in a little bit to to that relationship with, the front person or, or, you know, the kind of leader of, of a group or a singer songwriter. what's that de like the development of that relationship being like for you as a side player and you have. Maybe even some tips for folks of how to navigate that.

[00:21:49] Ben: Yeah, sure. I mean, there's a bunch, there's, yeah, I, I do have a bunch of thoughts and tips about that. being a side person. I've actually recently started calling myself an accompanist a lot more than a side person because it's like, I realized like that's actually what my job is.

Like, I'm not this person in the corner who's like chipping away at, I'm not doing finishing work in a corner and then can leave. You know, it's like I'm really. Being present with somebody and helping them create something. And as a bass player, or if you're a drummer or a guitar player or a piano player or whatever.

But you're like, I accompany singers. Like that's what I do for my job. Like I, I mostly play with singers. And so you have to learn the, the singer, you have to learn how to accompany them, what do they need? so I guess the tips that I have and the thoughts to carry forward is exactly that. What does that person, that whole person need support in?

And obviously you have to be aware of your own boundaries of what your capacity is to give and support. But that's kind of the, sort of the, the overall job description is, is. I'm supporting this person musically and helping them create something. And so what is required to get on the same page as that person, you know?

So just learning about things, asking lots of questions of the person, learning their context, not just musically, but emotionally and from their life perspective. Like how do they get to where they are? Informs their writing, informs how they want to perform and what forms what they want to do. And if you're gonna do a really good job, it, it is emotional work, right?

It's so much of music and art is just communicating feet different feelings or different thoughts or different ideas. And if you have, as a side person, I find if I have context for that, I do a better job. You know, I'm like, obviously you, you need to learn the chord changes or need to know what time signature the song's in.

But, I do feel like at this point, like in recording sessions or even just in rehearsals and stuff, like, and I know like, oh, I, they're, they're like, I want this song to feel a certain way. Like, that's, more useful information than you know, like, oh, the third measure is, it's a different note or there's one note.

And I think that's something that goes back to what we were talking about earlier with the, like, making mistakes and laughing about them, is that it's like, what's gonna make an amazing performance and what's gonna make an amazing collective performance. And, and if people are relaxed, they're gonna perform better.

If people are tune with each other, they're gonna perform better With a bunch of groups that I play with before we go on stage, we just like cuddle and just breathe together. And it's like really powerful to get on the same page. that's kinda like the overarching goal, you know, but like how do you achieve that goal as a side person?

Yeah. Like you, you learn about the person. The other thing that's really, really important too, that I believe in and this is something again that I just feel gr super grateful that I grew up in a family where dinner table conversation was talking about the business side of music and contracts and different challenges and problems that arise while being a musician.

is I'm a big fan and I really believe strongly that clear communication around expectations and money are done before you get on tour or before you get in the recording studio. I find that when that's not organized before and not clearly communicated, but what your expectations are before you get on tour or in the studio, it really muddles up the creative process.

[00:25:34] Rosalyn: Hmm.

[00:25:35] Ben: And it really makes that job of, of being a supportive side person harder. Because if you don't know what the artist expecting from you, they could have one idea in their head of like, why isn't this person like showing up in this way? And they could be resenting you and you could be like, why aren't they doing X, Y, and Z?

And you could be resenting them and you're not gonna make together. Well, right. So I just really, really believe that like all of the details should be organized before, and it's hard because there's no like governing body, like there's a union, you know, that. Does some things I like the idea of it, but the functionality of it, it's just like, it's not, it's part of certain parts of our community and there's certain things that it could be, there's a lot of things it could be doing more of, but it's like there's no, real governing body at this point in, in popular music history.

And there's no real, like, there's like, there are schools that teach you the music business, but it's like you don't actually need to go to a school to be a band leader, but you, there's a lot of things you do need to know and there's a lot of things you need to know as a side person as well. And like learning how to be your own advocate, learning how to talk about money, learning how to talk about responsibilities is huge.

And I think for me, I did a lot of learning about that when I became a tour manager actually, because I realized quickly that. That job is much more ambiguous than being a side person. And so I had to realize that every artist's needs and wants something different from me. So to have those very clear conversations about what's expected before made touring so much better.

So I think as a side person, just if you're just playing music to just know, you know, there's a few things that are gonna be clear. It's like, show up, learn the music, Like, it's just kinda like, don't be on your phone the whole time, you You know, it's like that kind of stuff because again, you think about it, you're walking into an artist's world and they've, they've set aside three hours to spend with you to try to communicate what they're trying to do. And if you're just on your phone the whole time, they're gonna be like, you don't care about me.

You're not interested in. What I'm doing. So like being present is really important. Those things are kind of obvious. Those don't need to be discussed in the meeting, but like asking before you get like, what's the day rate, what's the, or what's the show rate, what's the travel day rate? What's the per diem?

Right? Per diems are non-taxable money for side people, but they're still an expense for the artist. So, and it's for food and so like getting that sorted out before you get on tour is like super important. and, and often I like doing that over the phone again because it's a conversation.

It's not texts, there's not like those awkward, like long pauses between replies. Emails can also be weird too that way because it's like, people can be like, what's your rate? And you might give them a number and then they might just not write back and you're like, Hello.

[00:28:43] Rosalyn: What's wrong with my

[00:28:44] Ben: what was wrong with my number?

Like, you know, I really want to play music with you. I really want to, like, let's have a conversation. So I like to do all of that communication over the phone. And then, yeah, and then also, like if you are, it is gonna be a tour, it's gonna be like ask like, are you expecting me to share the driving? You know, who's asking questions? Like, is there going to be a tour manager who's going to be responsible for merch, who's gonna be responsible for whatever?

And I think like, as a side person you're definitely not expected to be doing that, all of that stuff, it's just important to know that that stuff's gonna be taken care of. And it's important to know that it's not your responsibility or if it is your responsibility, be like, The person might be like, actually, can you do like most of the driving, you'd be like, well, I might need a little bit more money.

Cuz that's like a whole other responsibility. So to have that conversation before you're in the tour and it's not like two weeks in and you've driven 3000 kilometers and you're resenting the other person. Right? So those kinds of conversations are really, really important. And then after those are clear, then I like to write an email that just summarizes the conversation so that there's a record of it in an email cuz it's easier to search.

And, and that's how I kind of like, like to do that. So when, that's taken care of as a side person. then you know what's happening and you can just make art and you can just show up for the person, you know, and it's gonna be great. be present, be there. Understand the emotional weight of what being brought into somebody's world. Understand the importance of that. And then you know, communicate about expectations, and then go have fun and do your best and it's gonna be great. Now, the other thing to keep in mind as well is that you are also getting paid to do a job and there's no responsibility them to hire you again.

And I, I think that's a really, really hard thing for side people to navigate because your job as a side person is to show up and be emotionally present with the person and the artist to make the best art you can together. So there is a certain amount of emotional investment. However, you're not contractually obligated to be hired against.

So you also have to recognize that there is a certain amount of detachment. And often that decision isn't because you're a bad person, it's because you play the fiddle and now they want a saxophone. Like it's just like, you know, or they want somebody who does something different to you. So I think the other thing you can do as a side person is be very strong in yourself with yourself.

Be a good with yourself, be solid. And honestly, I've made this mistake as a younger side person where I've been so emotionally invested in something and I feel like my whole career and my whole life is riding on this gig. And you pour all your stuff into it and then they decide they want to go in a different direction. Or they work with a producer who wants to use their guys and then you're not on the record, you know, and you take it so personally.

like as a side person, it's just a hard balance to balance that detachment and investment emotional contribution. So whatever that takes for you is different. You know, like a lot of side people have their own projects where they can get out all their artistic energy and that just, and it's, and it's purely just for that purpose.

It's not monetary at all. And that can be what that artist needs. Some art, some side people need to play with a bunch of different kinds of music so that they. Can show up in the best way for whatever gig that they're getting hired for. So it's, it's, it depends what you need so that you feel good in yourself when you show up to the gig.

And that's really, really important. And that's really important for the longevity of your career as a side person as well.

[00:32:38] Rosalyn: And then mirrored to that. Do you have advice for a band leader when hiring Accompanists What can they keep in mind to make it the best experience for for the folks that they're, that they're hiring?

[00:32:51] Ben: Yeah. I mean, it, it's, honestly, it's a lot of the same stuff, you know, it's like, Clear communication, set yourself up to succeed with the person. You know, obviously every gig's different and every experience you're giving the person is different. But, but I mean, the number one thing is like, if you ask somebody be very clear, okay, so here's, here's the advice for a front person.

Be as clear as possible about what you're asking the person. If, you, say you have a tour coming up and you say, here are the dates, are you available? That's kind of confusing to a side person because they don't know whether like, am I getting offered a gig?

Like, am I going on tour for two months?

[00:33:36] Rosalyn: Hmm.

[00:33:36] Ben: Or you just want to know if I'm free? like, there's nothing wrong with reaching out to a side person and being like, Hey, are you available? I'm just looking into seeing who's around to see. I'm not sure who I'm putting a band together. Like, being as clear as possible in your communication is, is, is so important.

Because I've talked to a lot, I have a lot of friends who are friend people and I've heard them say like, oh, I don't wanna like bug this person, or I don't want to take them away. It's like from their, whatever they're doing, like maybe they don't have time or maybe they don't have interest in, it's like if you're a side person, your job.

Like you want to be working, you want to be doing stuff, you're, it's not inconveniencing me to be asked to play with you. It's actually a huge honor and it's, it's exciting and it's what I want to do with my life. So. Like, I just would say that to any front person, where it's like when you're offering somebody a gig, you're not like inconveniencing them or not like taking them away from something else.

You know what I mean? So I just think like, be as clear as possible if you are reaching out to side people to say, know, in, in an ideal world, the, the email that I get is, Hey, I have a, I'd love for you to play bass. these are the rehearsals I wanna rehearse twice in this week. This is the rehearsal rate.

I, this is the gig. We're traveling one day playing this day, and we're traveling this day. This is the rate for this, this is the rate for that. this is your per diem can I confirm you? Yes or no? Then it's confirmed. Then I write back, I say, yes, you can confirm me for these dates.

and then it is like, great. And then I get an email with like, all of the songs that they want and they, they can tell me like what, how, like whether they want them played exactly like the record or whether they, they're more loose and open for interpretation. Like what their artistic goal is for that.

Who else, you know, and as much information as possible. These are the other musicians that are playing on the gig. This is how we'll be traveling. This is the accommodations. Like the more information the better. That's an ideal world That never happens, but, but, but I think it's just important to know that that's the goal and that's all the information that's required. I've often thought about coming up with like a base contract. For side people. Like I feel like that would be super useful. And not that it's like some big deal, but just to make sure that like all of the questions do get answered before you commit to the thing.

Because everybody has different needs, different wants, different tolerances, different boundaries. You know, like some people I know are like, I need my own hotel room. Like I'm not doing this without, my own hotel. And some people are like, I need X number of dollars, I'm not leaving my house. And some people are like, I'll leave my house for n nothing, but I need X, Y, and Z.

You know what I mean? So just like making sure that all of that's organized. So that's, that's a huge thing.

[00:36:37] Rosalyn: Well, it seems like it, it takes a certain amount of self-awareness,

[00:36:41] Ben: Yeah.

[00:36:42] Rosalyn: Which, sometimes folks at various stages of life and career don't necessarily have, you know, and is that, is that where you see some of the conflict coming in sometimes when there, when there has been misunderstandings

[00:36:53] Ben: absolutely. It's a lack of self-awareness and then a lack of communication about that, you know, and a lack of clear communication, So just the clarity and communication and expectations is just like, that's kind of everything, when that's sorted out, then we just have fun, play music and laugh and you, everyone just does their best and it's great, But. Yeah. It's just it, just the clarity of what they're expecting. And then for recording sessions, I also like, depending on what kind of session it is, but like, I also like in addition to getting the tunes, being like, here's inspiration playlists, or like, and this is why I like these things, like all of that.

The more information I get, the better it is, the better it goes.

[00:37:33] Rosalyn: what advice do you have for for people who, who maybe feel a little bit uncomfortable talking about money or who maybe even don't know what, their expectations are?

Do you have like any resources or tips for, for folks who don't have the experience, maybe don't have the language to know how to talk about,

about money or expectations?

[00:37:51] Ben: I feel like I was really blessed with Growing up in not just the family, but being from a very early age, I started playing with musicians that were way older than me. So I started having role models and people that were on a peer level, but they had way more experience than I did.

So I was able to ask them tons of questions about money and how it all works. And so I would recommend getting friends who are older than you, you know, going out for coffee. Hey, can I go for coffee and ask you a bunch of questions? Can I phone you and just ask you a bunch of questions? Hey, you know, I think a lot of older musicians. Well, I don't know how a lot of older musicians, but I can only speak for myself in that a lot of people have been very kind to me and very generous with information to me as coming up in the scene.

That, and I feel so happy to pay it forward, you know? And, and I feel like the more we talk to each other, the better it'll be and there will be sort of soft standards kind of for how this all works, you know? cuz it's interesting cuz it's like a lot of artists, you look at somebody on tour and you're like, how are you paying for this?

Or like, how much is everybody getting paid? And then you realize, you're like, oh no one, or I don't know, you just like learn stuff and you get shocked and surprised and. I don't know. There's no one way of doing it. You know, that's the other thing. But the more information, the more like, sort of loose guidelines you have about it, the better it is, you know?

[00:39:28] Rosalyn: So Ben, where can, people find you if they wanna follow along with, uh, with your adventures?

[00:39:33] Ben: I post to Instagram sometimes about some of the things that I'm doing. It's at Ben Whiteley. But I don't have a website. I don't, I don't do a lot of those things for some reason,

[00:39:46] Rosalyn: Well, Ben, thank you so much for, paying it forward here on, on the podcast,

[00:39:52] Ben: I'm so happy to be asked. It's such an honor. I mean, nobody ever talks to side people, you know? So it's, it's cool to have that opportunity to share some of my experience about that,

And, and it's, it's, it's, the thing too is that the landscape is always changing and, and I think it's important to recognize that as both a side person and a band leader, that the landscape is changing and we have to change with it.

And. If we have that flexibility and openness and communication, then we will be fine. But it's when we kind of isolate ourselves and get real cagey, that shit gets weird.

[00:40:34] Rosalyn: Perfect. Well, thanks again Ben. Thank you so much.

[00:40:40] Ben: Aw, thanks so much for having me, Roz. It's great to talk to you.