Embracing your Entrepreneurial Self with Jenny Whiteley

[00:00:00] Rosalyn: Hello and welcome to Refocus. Our guest today is Jenny Whiteley. Jenny grew up in a musical family in Toronto with a dad, uncle, two brothers, cousins, and stepmom, who are all professional musicians and songwriters. She played in the family band through the eighties and nineties. Finally forming her own band, the Bluegrass Outfit, heartbreak Hill In the early two thousands, Jenny started making albums as a singer songwriter, garnering much critical attention in some awards. In addition to her two Juno wins, she's been nominated four times as a solo artist and with the Junior Jug Band and Heartbreak Hill, she has a socan Number one song award for her song, baby I, as performed by Amy Milan and a gold record for her family bands recording.

She's toured all over the us, Europe, and Canada. Performed at nearly. Every major music festival including Embleton Vogue Festival, Winnipeg, Vancouver, Mariposa, Stan Rogers Fest, Stardust, picnic, and many more. Jenny and her partner Joey run old school camps, a summer camp for adults that was started in 2015 and rages from lessons in fiddle and banjo, songwriting, and much more.

Jenny. How are you doing?

[00:01:06] Jenny: thanks Rosalyn. I'm doing very well. That sounds very impressive.

[00:01:09] Rosalyn: It does sound very impressive. that's quite a resume.

[00:01:13] Jenny: Well, it's been a long time. Had a lot of years to do all that stuff.

[00:01:17] Rosalyn: the neat thing is that you've been surrounded By so many musicians in your, personal life,

that formed a, quite musical community around you.

has that kind of kept you going in the, in your career in music?

[00:01:29] Jenny: For sure. I think one of the big things was growing up around working musicians. So my dad, Chris Whiteley and my uncle Ken Whiteley were always working, recording and doing well, but they were Superstars are sort of like, it was like every day there was gigs and there was tours to be planned, and it was kind of like a regular life, except what the parents did was music and art.

So I think having that role model has been really grounding. So I've always just been super excited about I'm making something I am really into and enjoying. Is excited about, enthusiastic about, as opposed to like making career choices or moves. So I think. Like with that grounding and with all of those music people and artists around me growing up, like my parents friends and people in their bands and stuff, I just kind of got addicted to that, to that community of like artists kind of hanging out together and, you know, inspiring each other.

So yeah, the, long answer is what I just said. The short answer is yeah, for sure. Like growing up in the musical community that's still where I live basically.

[00:02:33] Rosalyn: And you spearheaded the legendary high Lonesome Wednesdays at the Toronto Silver Dollar. I mean, how long did that go for? It

[00:02:42] Jenny: I think it was like 21 years or something in total. my brother Dan started it officially with a couple of other fellas and It was a fun night, but they weren't really, they hadn't focused in on like a sort of a genre. And basically what happened is Heartbreak Hill kind of was just forming and we got asked if we would mind giving a shot at trying the Wednesdays.

And so because of that, it ended up being a Bluegrass night. And really was Heartbreak Hill that kind of got that going. And then we, we stopped doing it officially, but a lot of us stayed and kept playing with what became known as crazy Strings. which was the collective basically.

But I think I was there on and off for a lot of that the last few years. I wasn't there as much cuz I moved out of the city. But pretty cool. And I just like, it's been awesome to see so many people, like even now, That I run music workshops for adults and stuff. A lot of people coming to teach are people that used to come to the dollar and kind of got hooked on that style of music, maybe partly cuz of that.

So it's, it's really cool to see the continuum generationally too.

[00:03:38] Rosalyn: Yeah, that. gig was a, a really influential it's been said to kind of have like kicked off the Renaissance of Bluegrass in Toronto, but really kept it, going because it, I think it really infected multiple generations of,

[00:03:53] Jenny: I think it was a home for people too who were looking for, like, it was kind of like, you'd get like deadheads in there. You'd get like old time people, you'd get like swing dancers would come down. It was, in the nineties, right. So it was like a place where kind of like, filled a niche for a lot of people that was maybe missing and also because, Like everybody in sort of my group at that time, like our major influences were the sort of that second generation bluegrass players, like the real shredders, sort of like the first, like sort of like Tony Rice and those guys, I'm gonna name them all and I'll forget somebody.

But anyway, so like, we were really into bluegrass and it was just a bit different. It was just different enough that it attracted. I think probably younger people. There was always bluegrass. Like with Heartbreak Hill, we, did a lot of shows with the Bluegrass Society and things like that, but we would be opening for American bands, which was awesome.

it was just a little bit more conservative. The Canadian version of Bluegrass, I'm saying. I mean, I loved a lot of it, like the Dixie Flyers and stuff, big fan. It, it's not that, it's just that we were bringing our own like energy, As, our age and our early twenties into bluegrass, which I think was exciting for people.

Resonated with them.

[00:04:54] Rosalyn: And were you writing original material for Heartbreak Hill?

[00:04:58] Jenny: Yeah, I was, I was, and that was, and Dottie Cormier too. so we wrote a quite a few tunes for Heartbreak Hill. We only ever made one record, which is unfortunate cuz actually I was, I started just playing bass in that band at that time. And so when we made the record, I'm a Victor Bateman, who's great is playing on the record, but I wish there was a Heartbreak Hill record with me playing bass cuz I really, really leaned into it and loved playing bass in that band eventually.

And then was, and then got to play bass with crazy strings too, which was really fun for a long years. yeah, we wrote original tunes and actually that's how I ended up making my first record basically was I had a lot of songs I was writing at that time. That were, kind of not gonna fit in with the Heartbreak Hill.

Like, even though they were super cool, like the band, my brother Dan Whitely and Chris Quinn and Dotty and I, like, they embraced doing some pretty strange songs that weren't like straight up bluegrass for sure. But anyway, then I had sort of a lot of these songs I was writing, it was fairly prolific at that time.

And that stuff kind of ended up being my first like Jenny Whitely record called Jenny Whitely.

And then I named my last record the original Jenny Whitely, just to really confuse people.

[00:06:00] Rosalyn: So, Your album with Heartbreak Hill came out in 1998, and since then you've put out five solo albums. how was your process or, or your approach to songwriting kind of progressed throughout those albums?

[00:06:19] Jenny: Yeah. Well, for sure I've also gotten busier in my life. Like, when you're first writing. Or at least most people when they're first writing their first couple of records often don't have like a maybe an established career or a family and a lot of other things like own their own home like this, run businesses.

All these things I do now. So for sure the writing is more in fits and starts now. But the good news about that, and this is so cool, I think that how this just kind of is the way life works is because I've been writing so long and have written so many songs now I feel like. I just kind of have these wheels in the back of my head.

I know there's ideas there, but I'm not panicked or anything about like getting them out and writing them because I just know they're going to. Wait for me to have the time and inspiration to like, oh, this is when I'm gonna sit down and be excited about writing something. I'm not a writer who makes myself sit down to write every day.

it doesn't really work for me. Never has. So I'm kind of more of an inspirational moment writer. That's how it's always been. But I, just had a lot more time and I was around a lot of, live music touring and all this kind of stuff.

So it was, gave you that juice in the first like two or three records. And then after that it's been more of maybe like a, you know what would be super cool? Is to make a record that sounds kind of like this, like maybe you do something that's like a bunch of songs I learned when I was a kid from my family, or, and then you kind of putting projects together has become more of what I do now as opposed to just like, oh, I've just got these 20 songs that spilled out me this year, and I gotta figure out how to put 'em together into a record.

It's kind of like, the opposite way of doing it. But it's great that I know now I have the skills and I have the experience that I look forward to my times when I can write and I don't worry about that. Not happening all the time. I don't like beat myself up for like, geez, I haven't written a song in three months.

What's wrong with me? Or whatever. That kind of feeling anymore, which is very nice.

[00:08:03] Rosalyn: So you mentioned that you kind of grew up in, a working musician. Family, kind of grew up in the, in the music business. And then you, you've transitioned into becoming an an entrepreneur through the camps. Can you tell me a little bit about how you started and, and what that what that transition has been like as an entrepreneur?

[00:08:23] Jenny: Yeah, for sure. I also I think that artists and musicians. Are kind of entrepreneurial, right? Like they just sort of, by nature, if you're going to get out and get your own gigs or find someone to play with find lessons, all these things, find your, your community. Like you kind of have that spirit in you.

Some more than others for sure. And I definitely have it. I've always sort of wanted to. Ever since I was a kid, I think it's just my nature. Like, oh, let's put on a play or let's, do a, magic show and we'll like get 5 cents from all the adults. Or, I've always had that sort of like, the Muppets on the road sensibility.

Like, it'll be great. We'll put on a show and everybody will come and.

but then I do think that there's like a lot of musicians, especially obviously through the pandemic, it was difficult for everyone's pivoting here and there, right.

So that term, but it, I, it might have helped some people realize that they actually have a lot more skills and a lot more going on than they might think. Like I've always thought there should be some, a service for musicians who someone comes in and writes their resume and says like, look at all these things.

If you put it in the terms of like, Business world, you actually have management skills. you've been a tour coordinator, you've done all these different things, and people sell themselves short because they think, well, I don't know what else to do. This is all I know how to do. And actually, I think if that's what you wanna do, I, I hope that that's what you get to do.

But if you were interested in other things, I think you'd just be surprised at how much you actually know how to do, anyway, so in my case, I was always kind of interested in starting things, like I ran a little festival up here for six years called the Elephant Roots Festival. That was a cooperative festival.

Never had more than 500 people come to it, but all the bands came and understanding that at the end of it, we split the money equally between everybody. So, and I starting, big group tours, like the Hoot Nanny Review, which had like eight bands, and it was like 14 of us on the road together.

We came up with a whole stage show. So I like all that kind of stuff anyway, and so this has been really great and I, I find for me personally, it's not the same creative outlet as performing and writing songs. But it, is as exciting to me as doing other projects. And maybe for me, I need to have a balance of.

Both. I can't just do one or the other. I know that's not the case for a lot of folks, but so when I had this idea and we started up the camps, I was also super fortunate. I guess I'd had enough experience too, where I knew this idea was something that people really did want and I was excited about it.

And I think it came across and it, and we were fortunate enough to be successful right away, which I know is not the case for a lot of things sometimes. And it, it's still a lot of work. And it's still a labor of love because you wouldn't do it if you didn't love it. But anyway, I found that certainly throughout the pandemic and everything, Joey's also a chef.

We're both people who just kind of have a lot of skills that we've developed through our lives just because we're, we just like new experiences, I think mostly. So we felt very. Fortunate, lucky, all these things to have other outlets for our creativity and honestly to a ways to make a living when there was no more live music and there was no touring and nobody really knew.

And, you know, to be honest, like the money drying up from, royalties and selling records, all these things have kind of culminated to make it pretty tough to be just someone who's a performing musician. So, I think that a lot of musicians could probably embrace their entrepreneurial spirit a little bit more, and I bet you with a little encouragement and coaching people would be surprised at like what other ideas they actually do have and that they could make them work if they wanted to.

It's not as scary as it seems, I think.

[00:11:48] Rosalyn: do you have other creative outlets, when you're not songwriting, is there like alternative?

[00:11:53] Jenny: Yeah, well I do a lot of puzzles, it's maybe not so inspiring as it is, like meditative, so like jigsaw puzzles and things like that. Uh, A lot of word games. I love that. And I find that that's kind of great for just clearing my mind because what's happening now in my life is that I, like, I was listing all those things before I didn't have in my twenties that I now have, which is, I've just got a lot of in a lot of different pies it's important for me to clear my mind so that when I come back to the task that I need to get done, whatever it's gonna be that week I'm not frazzled and I'm not sort of like muddled with all of this stuff coming in, especially now because.

you're getting texts and messages and emails and everything is happening all the time. people are just asking you for a lot. Like, so I, I think it's important to like, Do things for myself that make me just relax, inspiration wise, I still love to go see live music, so I'm so happy.

Live music is back. I just went to see Bill Frak on Wolf Island. It was amazing. So try to get out actually to see live music. Like even if I don't feel like it, I know it's just gonna work for me. Go to New Orleans to the jazz festival, come back totally amped up and like ready to go.

So that kind of, so I love doing that. And then whenever I can. If Joey and I both have enough time and we've like chilled out enough that we're like feeling re-energized, then we definitely wanna like sit down and you know, what we do for fun is we learn tunes that aren't, like, we just learn covers.

Like we'll learn an Everly Brothers song, Roger Miller song. Or even like a pop song or like a rock song from the seventies, like kind of entering my yacht Rock ears. So,

[00:13:19] Rosalyn: Yes.

[00:13:19] Jenny: Maybe that kind of stuff, and that, that's always super fun because it's not really work cuz you're not like, oh we have to learn this tune for the show we're doing next month or whatever.

It's just like, let's just learn a song. And it is easy to kind of get outta the habit of doing that just for fun. Like when we used to jam and play together with other musicians all the time just for fun and, and it kind of naturally just stops happening quite as much. So it's good to just like get that happening.

And also, we're here in Elfin, which is. Not necessarily easy to just, beep up over to someone else's place and, play together. So it's nice that Joey and I have the ability to like hang out and play music together. That's a real bonus.

[00:13:51] Rosalyn: what was that move like for you out to Afin? I feel like there's been a. Especially like during the pandemic, a lot of folks ended up getting out of the, bigger city centers if they could, or if they wanted to.

And yeah, it's been interesting to and cer certainly I did as well a little bit before the pandemic, but yeah. What was that, what was that transition like for you as someone who was born and raised in Toronto?

[00:14:16] Jenny: Well the good news is that I spent a lot of time in Bracebridge with my mom's parents and my mom's side of the family's all from there, from Muskoka. So I kind of like, I spent like, holidays, weekends, Summers there.

And so I did kind of feel, I always felt like a little bit like a one foot in either a little bit country, a little bit rock and roll.

so then my, because my mom had moved up to this area from a bunch of years and so I had knew the little region a pretty well, and I did. Feel a connection to this area. So it wasn't like a real, like shock. It wasn't like I'm someone who hasn't like, spent time in the wilderness or on farms or all that kind of thing.

So, I was kind of ready for it. I was excited for it. We moved here 20 years ago too, so it's sort of hard to like even remember what it felt like before now. But we bought this place and then the next year we had our eldest daughter. And so, It was so many things changing at once in my life that it's hard to like separate, one thing from the the next.

But one thing for sure is that it was just at a time in our music where we weren't doing as many like shows week to week in Toronto, like didn't really seem to be as clutch for us to stay in town in terms of, Playing all the time because what we were doing mostly at that time was tours.

So that, so it'd be our festivals and touring. So that helped a lot when, at that time when we moved here that we didn't feel that we had to, be playing every Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday or whatever. but you do pay the price for that. You do kind of end up. Not being on the top of people's mind.

So you have to really work to keep your connections and your musical community together. If you decide to move away from it and you still wanna be part of it, you know, you still need to like, be like creating your own little, projects and tours and reaching out to people and letting people know when you're gonna be in the city.

Like, we've definitely found that that's been super important for us to keep all that stuff, connected.

[00:16:04] Rosalyn: And now you're getting to invite folks up to Elephant to come and hang out at the old school camps. Can you tell me a little bit about the origin of the, of the camp and how, how that came about?

[00:16:16] Jenny: So the old school camp started off. It used, well, it's still called the Old School Bluegrass Camp, but because we do other kinds of camps now, we do a lot of songwriting and fiddle and banjo and some old time and stuff. We wanted to make sure it wasn't just, two specifics. So now we're calling it old school camps.

The reason it's called old school camps at all is because my friend Alisa, who I started the business with, bought a decommissioned public school in prince Edward County. And I'd had this idea in the back of my mind, I knew all these people who were flying and driving all over the place to teach at different workshops.

So like out west or down in the States. And then I also knew a bunch of people here in Ontario who were going to. Attend those and take the classes and do all that. And I just always thought like, I betcha there's a way we could do this in Ontario. Like it'd be really cool if we had one here. We could, have a lot of players from this province and a lot of, encourage this kind of growth within our own, setting.

so when I saw her place when she bought the old school, I just said, I have this kind of great idea. I think it's gonna be really cool and I think it could really work. What do you think? And she was looking for things to do. And so, that worked out amazing. So we started in 2015 I think we had 30 people come the first year.

And we, we've, we grew to 50 people and that's as big as we ever wanna be. So we have 50 people come to the main camp, and in the last three years we moved it, from her place, she decided to step away from that business. And my partner, Joey and I decided that we just keep it and run it ourselves.

We moved it from there to here in Han which is in the Leonard Highlands. Ontario and then it was a pandemic, which was pretty interesting. so we've only run it twice here because we did miss a year due to having to shut down for the covid.

[00:17:49] Rosalyn: it's really neat to see it growing. Like to the point it sells out. each year and, and that's really exciting that you're able to add. More weeks. do you think that there's and maybe it's pandemic related, I don't know, but do you think that there's more adults willing to, try something new or I mean, it's not something that I think maybe adults think are, is for them, like

[00:18:10] Jenny: Yeah. Like summer camp, right? Yeah. Well, that's what I do. I do try to say that when I write anything about camp, that it's summer camp for adults because it, it is like, you're camping. You're eating communally. There's lots of, play, so to speak. During the week there's lots of rules, like it's really, really fun. It really does let you reconnect with your youthful self where you were someone who was open to new experiences and open to learning. So. I think there's a community of lifelong learners and people who are enthusiastic about new experiences out there anyway.

Certainly seems to be a lot of folks in the arts and maybe in music in particular who are, have that attitude. But I definitely think people decided throughout the pandemic like, what am I waiting for? Like, what am I waiting for this perfect moment when I can like afford it and go and take the time? And people just said like, that's it.

I'm not gonna wait anymore. I'm just gonna start living my life and like having fun and doing things I've. Wanted to get back to, and so the, I do, I have noticed that actually a little pickup in that kind of attitude from, from folks and it's been really awesome to see people coming out with that kind of attitude actually.

[00:19:11] Rosalyn: Yeah, I done a lot of teaching and the thing that always gets me or even after a gig, like I'll have adults come up to me and say, oh, I wish I, I wish I had learned when I was a kid. I wish I would've started when I was a kid.

It's too late for me now. And I, no, it's not too late, isn't it? And it's, it's a real struggle sometimes to convince adults that, you you actually know so much more now, you're like on way higher of a, footing. And, and my philosophy is always that like, kids don't know they suck.

You know that you suck cuz you've heard a lot of good musicians, but kids don't know that they think they're great, so they don't care about

making mistakes or whatever.

does it take some convincing, is there any of that kind of element in, in getting people to, to sign on?

[00:19:53] Jenny: Yeah, for sure. try, I mean, the only way I can really Communicate that specifically to people as one-on-one. And luckily, I'm out and about quite a bit, so I do meet a lot of people and when I get a chance to talk to someone who's kind of on the fence and nervous about that type of thing, like, I was told when I was a kid that I was no good or I had a, I couldn't sing.

A lot of tons people think they can't sing because someone at. In their childhood, told them they couldn't. And so they have a lot of trepidation about coming and sharing and they're gonna be embarrassed. And like you say, kids aren't embarrassed, so they, that's why they learn so well, it works out really well that way.

But as to your point, which is a great point, that there's so much more experience and you've learned to learn so much in your life by the time you're an adult, that it actually. It can take a lot less time than people think. Like I sort of said, say to people, you'll be surprised at just taking your instrument out every day and playing all day with other people.

but the difference between when you come in and six days later you leave camp, you'll just realize your potential, which is the most exciting thing because then you're like, wow, if I got that much better in six days, imagine if I took lessons for a year and come back to camp next year.

it's not really, not about like, Who got better and who's, learned the most chords and the most runs or whatever. It's really more just about the excitement and like having something to look forward to and connecting with other people who do that too.

Like that's another thing about campus so cool, is that people realize, oh, there's all these other people. Like people have formed bands and little jamming groups and like song circles and all this stuff cuz they've connected at camp, which is like my favorite thing in the world.

[00:21:21] Rosalyn: For folks who are, just learning on their own, a lot of, a lot of people might they might not be used a plane in front of another human or, let alone people that they don't know. Do you encounter that kind of fear and what would you say to someone that might be scared about playing in front of a stranger.

[00:21:38] Jenny: Well, I mean basically the way I built camp, my first original camp, which is the Bluegrass Camp, where I put in Band Labs into that camp. So my idea all along was to get people playing together right away. So you come and you do learn on your instrument. You'll be in your like banjo class or your fiddle class with your other students that are doing that instrument, but then another part of your day.

Just as important is that you go and you work with an instructor and they coach you on how to learn a couple of songs together and get them set and ready to perform by the end of camp. So I always talk to people about how you're gonna be so looked after and everybody's in the same boat together. And I think that's why, it's definitely why I wanted to put people in these, in these immediate bands because then you're not.

Just floundering out on your own with your own nerves and your own sense of, self and everything, feeling so uh, vulnerable. You have like a little gang you form right away and you're all in the same boat and you can all support each other and lift each other up.

And then that really helps people in, in that way. And there, it's such a safe and joyful and environment camp. There's like, no judgment. Like Ivan Rosenberg always says at the beginning of camp, he's like, Put your hand up if you came here to judge people and be really snarky and mean about other, other people.

No, nobody. Okay. Interesting. Interesting. You know, We just try to make it fun and we really just, hopefully people relax into it. And usually after the end of the first day, all nerves are calmed and, we move through the, the rest of the week with a lot of excitement.

[00:23:05] Rosalyn: One of the instructors I noticed this year is Riley Boas. He was the first person that ever

taught me an old time fiddle tune. Who was that? Like, really kind of kickstarted my love for that music. This was like way back into like a young performer program in, in Winnipeg. And

yeah,

he's just the real deal.

Such a great instrumentalist. How did you get connected with him? Because you guys have done some, some recording and, and performed quite a bit together,

[00:23:30] Jenny: I guess we did just one tour up here in Canada and we might have done a show or two. He played with me at the Winnipeg Folk Festival. So it's a Winnipeg. I wonder if it was the same time, cuz I taught a songwriting workshop that same year so, we were on this, faculty or whatever together that year.

So that's where I met Riley

originally, so we just hit it off basically as people just hanging out, which was great. And that's always such a great foundation for playing music with people when you just kind of, meet someone who has the same sense of humor and you can just kind of jive right away.

And then I think, I think I just kept in touch. I'm usually pretty good at, keeping up with, once I've met someone who I really wanna, be buddies with, like, reaching out and being able to keep up communication. I also felt at that time when I met him that he would just love my brother Dan.

And so I said like, we gotta do some music together. You'll love Dan, he'll love you. So I basically just kind of took a leap of faith and said like, why don't we just record a record and, we'll do it at Luther Wright's cottage on Lake Ontario and he'll record it. and everybody said, sure.

So we did that. We never released that record, that record's in the can, and it's sitting there, it's such a cool record. It It just needs to come back to light and we need to figure out what to do with it. I just, I reached out to Riley just to see if he was available and for this, and he was so sweet.

He's just the greatest. He was like, I have been thinking about how we could figure out how to hang out. Again. I'm so excited that you asked me and I'll totally be there, so we're all really pumped about it.

[00:24:47] Rosalyn: Wow. I like that. Jenny, can you tell us a little bit about the songwriting camps you do?

[00:24:53] Jenny: Yeah, so the songwriting camps sort of started as an offshoot of Bluegrass Camp. we do two camps in July, back to back. But then we have everything here where we could host something, beyond that. So I think the, the sort of natural inclination was to do something with songwriting since I'm a songwriter and so is Joey.

and we write together and we thought, we could run some of the workshops, but maybe we'd get someone. Like really exciting to come and, and sort of be, do the masterclass part. So we've done a few of those Now I don't wanna list everybody cuz I don't wanna leave anybody out, but like we had Paul Langua from the Tragically Hip last year and we've had Lynn Miles, David Franci, we limit those to like 20 people because me, anyone I've taught songwriting and when I deal with groups of folks like.

that's the right number of people. You wouldn't wanna do too many more people than 20. So we limit those to 20 and we usually split them up into two groups and do workshops, a, b them with the different songwriters. And people get the chance to, again, like share their songs in a song circle, like in a sort of really fun and supportive environment.

And they get one-on-one sessions with some, a songwriter to, if they have like one thing they really wanna work through or a specific question or play a song and get some feedback. We do a lot of fun, like games and things to get you out of your rut or like just kind of open you up and get you to stop being so self-conscious about it.

And it's really, really fun. and it's where I'm the most hands-on, like the other camps. I, I'm doing a lot of things, but I'm not necessarily teaching at them. And at the songwriting ones I do get in a little bit more and do more teaching, which I really love too.

[00:26:24] Rosalyn: Hey, imagine it's a, bit of a different mindset going into like a songwriting camp. Cuz you're, you're sharing a little bit extra that, maybe somebody going into play the one in five at base camp isn't necessarily cuz you've got, your stories and your. The lyrics and the songs and do you have maybe like a tip of like one of the ways that, that you make people feel, feel comfortable just to share a song that they're, that they're working on, something that they're workshopping.

If they might be a little bit nervous to take that step to, to sharing it.

[00:26:54] Jenny: I mean, the only thing I really can say about that is that I and the rest of the other songwriters who are, quote unquote professional songwriters who are there running the camp, We open ourselves up to the same thing, so we'll do all the exercises with the group, which means we're writing a song in five minutes, or we're coming up with the worst possible chorus we can, and sharing it with the group.

And just kind of realizing not to, trying not to take yourself so seriously to know that we all understand how it can be. On one hand, super difficult to write an a song in a real labor of love and can be kind of a difficult journey. And on the other hand, sometimes can just be really joyous and happens quickly, and, and, and that's where songwriting lives.

It's in the middle of those two things. So I would explain that to people, and I would also explain to them that the process is very open. Everybody is sharing a story, sharing, a joke, sharing a concern. there's laughter and there's tears and everybody is in the same position.

And even if you've written 150 or thousand songs, it's a new song, you still feel vulnerable. And that's great. That's where you should feel. You don't wanna just be tin pan alley churning out song after song. You want to hopefully, try and, use those emotions to make your song just even that much more.

Real and approachable and understandable to other people. Try to keep it about your real experience. That's, that's what we try to do,

[00:28:15] Rosalyn: Do the folks that sign up for your workshops, what level would you say these experienced songwriters or if you've like written a few diddies,

[00:28:24] Jenny: Oh, you

can definitely e everything is in there. Basically, if you are have the, the desire to write songs, that's what the, that's what we're here for. So whether or not you know, you've scribbled a few and you think you have it in you, but you don't know how to do it. Sometimes we have had people who come and they're like, my block is that I don't play an instrument well, so I don't know how.

And so then we can work with those people and show them. This is a way you can write without having to play an instrument. And, get started at least, and find melodies. We do like workshops on melodies, harmonies, forms of songs. Like, what's a bridge? What does this mean? Like, and the thing about that, of course, is we all as lifelong learners, if you're a musician, you're generally that kind of mindset of, The more you learn, the more you know you can learn. like. So we've had professional songwriters and professional musicians also come to our music camps. to learn a second instrument. Or, maybe someone's a guitar player or a mandolin player, but they don't really solo and they wanna take it to the next level.

that's someone who, gets into this like band lab with someone who's, all they do is strum around the campfire at home. And they both learn just as much, it's the same with songwriting. You know, If you come to songwriting camp, it's a, there's a good chance you've come to give yourself like a, a boost in your creativity.

Maybe it's like you're doing something for yourself for a change. Like there's all these good reasons to come to something like that. So we have people there who are really established songwriters and. Just have so much fun diving into these things. And maybe they haven't ever done an exercise like the ones that we're presenting to them and they're like, this is so cool.

I never really thought about songwriting as like a game. And, so it gives people a lot of like, new ways to look at something that maybe they've been doing for a long time. And, and also people who are just starting, gives them a, a boost into like how they can actually turn their ideas into tangible songs, which is super fun.

[00:30:10] Rosalyn: That's so fun. And before we wrap up can you tell me why you would encourage somebody who Maybe hasn't heard of or isn't familiar with Bluegrass.

why you love the genre and, and what can they get out of, discovering something about bluegrass?

[00:30:29] Jenny: Well, the original reason I chose to make bluegrass, the, the music that the camp would be built around was for sure that it's something I love. I played a lot and I have a lot of friends who are excellent bluegrass musicians, so I knew the community would be available to me to try this new experiment and, and I could ask my friends to come and, teach and they'd take a chance with me.

So that was exciting. But also, I realized as I was putting the camp together kind of on paper for the first time, that it's a great way to learn to play together because it's kind of a set band. There's sort of a traditional way that, there's basically like five or six bluegrass instruments that are in a band, and they all kind of have parts they play.

And I thought, well, that's actually gonna be great because even if you're not really into bluegrass, but as long as you kind of like, acoustic music, folk music, country music, fiddle music, You're gonna be able to dig into a little bit of beginner bluegrass music basically.

It is a, it is a difficult idiom. We don't expect people to have raging solos or anything, but we do teach people how to fill in spaces and how to use mic work is really fun because that's something else that people do in bluegrass. So it gives you something to focus around that old, standard bluegrass mic.

And so anyway, we tell people usually, Ivan Rosenberg, who is such a help to me all the time. He sort of advised me, he said, you can send them a, for instance, a, like a list of songs they should be familiar with before they come to camp. He said, but then they're gonna expect you to work on those songs all through camp.

And people just tend to wanna, do a lot of homework before they come. he said, we, we agreed on this, that. The fun thing is for the surprise to kind of, we, you sort of discover things with the, with the rest of the campers as we go through the camp. And so, obviously if you're don't really know bluegrass, it's pretty easy these days to just kind of Google it, and look at like who are the, who are the most listened to bluegrass bands and just get a sense of what that is.

And then come to camp and we'll take it from there. Like, that's the nice thing about doing something like this is that you are. Coming and you're allowing someone else to kind of fill your days. And that's, I always super appreciate that people trust us to take 'em on this journey.

I mean, I guess the proofs in the pudding with the return campers. We have like, I think at least a third to half of the people every year are repeat campers. So it's gotta, we gotta be doing something right there.

[00:32:41] Rosalyn: I feel like if you play an instrument and you haven't. explored improvising before.

it can be a really nice kind of launchpad into that. There's a pretty basic set of cords that you're dealing with and, they're obviously everything thing can get more complicated and more virtuosic, but it's a nice kind of, kind of launchpad and in like a, a safe environment, specifically, with.

It's the instructors that you have and you folks, it's a neat launching pattern to into discovering that. And also maybe like a neat way to learn how to play with like a singer too, if you haven't, like accompanied. And I know there's instrumental stuff, but like a neat way to kind of learn how to accompany either another instrument or accompany a soloist or accompany a singer.

[00:33:25] Jenny: I mean, that's a huge focus in the fiddle and banjo camp that we run too, and that. Is kind of why it's called fiddle and banjo camp. We do have other instruments that come there, but the idea is like, let's try and learn to play together. So, those two instruments, it's really fascinating to see how they can work together.

And so that's what, that's why I'm excited about that, camp, too is that mix of instruments, but also like at the bluegrass camp, it made me think when you were saying that, that we have every night there's a slow jam, which is really just going through songs. Just like it sounds really slowly, and it's a way for people to actually realize, oh, timing is the most important thing.

Like I, we always talk about, if you ask anyone they'd rather play with, any, if these musicians here teaching at camp, if they would rather play with someone you know, who knows all the chords and has, a lot of slick licks or has good timing. They're gonna choose timing every time.

So it's kind of like, that's another nice thing about bluegrass is like, just getting the fundamentals of timing and different ways you can back each other up is, is really available to you in that music.

[00:34:29] Rosalyn: Well, we'll put All the links to the camps and how people can find the camp on, on social media.

[00:34:36] Jenny: it's old school camps.com too, in case someone doesn't know how to look up things. I'm actually doing, speaking of when I said I bought, we bought this house 20 years ago and our daughter's turning 20.

It's like all these things are happening. It's the 20th anniversary of a lot of. Cool stuff. My record, hope Town is the 20th anniversary of that. So we're gonna do some shows this spring. I haven't played like a, a show under my own name for I think six years. So I've been doing some shows finally, which I'm super excited about.

[00:35:01] Rosalyn: Great. and so they can go to jenny whitely.com and find out where to find you in the springtime

[00:35:08] Jenny: exactly.

[00:35:08] Rosalyn: summer. Well, so great to chat with you, Jenny. Thank you so

[00:35:11] Jenny: You too, Rosalyn. Yeah. Thank you.