Culture in Climate Conversations with Devin Latimer

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Rosalyn: Hello and welcome to Refolkus. Today on the show we're talking to Devin Latimer. Devin is a faculty member in chemistry at the University of Winnipeg focusing on green organic chemistry and environmental communications. He's also the Artistic Director of Trout Forest Music Festival in northwestern Ontario. Devin is a founding performer with Winnipeg Music Collectives, Lee Rapids and Juno Award winners, the Nathan Music Collective. How are you doing, Devin?

Devin: Good. How are you? Rosalyn, nice to see you again after just a few days.

Rosalyn: It is very nice to [00:01:00] see you, so soon. Usually I have to say the opposite to most folks that come on the show. we, I. got to see each other at folk lines for the culture and climate conversations that we had there and then, just recently at the CFMA and the Folk Canada Festival members retreat,

Devin: We've put in a lot of time together.

Rosalyn: we've put in a lot of time together where at that retreat, there was a moment where I believe you, challenged me to a, a public open debate

Devin: right. I did. I said let's go rumble.

Rosalyn: And so, you know. keep into my word, Devin. We're having you on the show for a uh, battle royale where I think actually we agree on everything, but still, I think, there was some, you know, really interesting, things to discuss that came out of both the culture and climate conversations as well as the festival retreat when we were focusing on, climate issues and, To be honest, I feel like there's a whole lot of things I can talk to you about, but, in keeping with the, theme I think of, of our last few meetings, we're gonna [00:02:00] maybe focus in on, climate and festivals. so I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about, really the connection that you have between the work that you do at the U of W and the festival at Trout Forest and, and some of the connections there.

Devin: So I'm an organic chemist and I taught courses in organic chemistry, of course, but also in environmental issues and environmental chemistry. And I started doing green chemistry research. It's environmentally more benign chemistry for social justice reasons really. I just found, you know, that there's a lot of people that benefit greatly from chemistry and technology. But a lot of people that get all of the harms and very little of the benefits of technology or of capitalism in general. So, green chemistry to me is just like, it sounds, there's these principles of green chemistry. There's calculations you do of what are called green chemistry metrics of the processes you're developing. And it's all about [00:03:00] the basics of it, of, or just trying to do no harm.

You know, you're, you're, we're trying to develop processes not just for the sake of to increase profits, but the premise is to develop processes and perhaps. Synthesize the same materials or do the same processes with less environmental harm all the time. That's the basis of green chemistry.

what we were talking about just the other morning that you were referring to was, That maybe the culture of festivals or of programming festivals is going to change. Maybe some people are trying to make changes that may make it, for sustainability reasons, or energy reasons, they may make it a little, a fair bit more work for some people that are already stretched and maybe doing a lot of these activities as volunteers.

And so, first of all, I was totally of an agreement with that. However, my premise I think right now is that, with climate, we are at a state where. Every single citizen needs to do just a little more. It's kind of like, you know, the 8 billion people we have in this [00:04:00] world are the fact that we have 8 billion people are part of the problem, but it's also what we should look at as a strength.

If we actually just all do a little bit better from year to year, then, you know, the situation may eventually change. So that's kind of my premise with why I think every bit of funding and every bit of programming. Every bit of research, every bit of policy should just have a movement towards more sustainable every year.

You know? And if we keep moving in that way, then hopefully we can start making some headway. So with that and teaching environmental issues, I feel like that is an example of something that is making progress. There's many, drastic environmental issues that we have made progress on, such as the ozone layer, for example. That's something that was potentially a calamity for humanity.

When the ozone layer started to develop through a couple of very smart scientists, atmospheric scientists that just followed their nose and figured this all out, were able to ban the chemicals that were destroying the ozone layer. And the ozone layer is now [00:05:00] closing.

So we really, you know, these are examples of things where we really have come together as a society and we were able to make policy changes and ban chemicals and the ozone hole is closing. It has, it is starting to repair itself. It shows you the resilience of nature, I think as well. Whereas climate change is quite a different story, as I'm sure most of us know right now.

This has been known for a long time. This is happening. But I think because of the incredible economic impact of moving away from fossil fuels we just haven't been able to really get anywhere with it and I. Teach about this in my classes. Environmental issues.

We have events on campus where we try to get the word out and a little bit greater. We go off campus sometimes for things like science rendezvous and try to talk to the public about this. But in general, what I've found is that, like, say in my environmental issues class, which is a part of the environmental studies program, the same students that are in my class will come to the events that we have when we might bring somebody like David Suzuki for [00:06:00] a talk.

So it's, it's the same. People, these are already converted individuals. These are people that are with the program and they're out there to support. So feel like, you know, you're preaching to the choir kind of thing. And I think part of the problem with the energy transition and climate change is that we're just not getting the right conversations in the right places with all people from all walks of life.

And so. it kind of always lingered in the back of my mind how to do this. But one time during my class I had Jackson Hall, Dane, great local banjo picker and member of the D Rangers, who is also a solar energy specialist. I had him speak to my environmental issues class about solar technology in Manitoba at this time and where it stands and all that.

And after he did his lecture, we had lunch and we talked about the potential of doing these conversations at festivals. So of course, festivals, folk festivals have long been involved in sustainability. And some of them, [00:07:00] Doing a solar powered sound system or bike powered stages is not totally unique, but upping the ante a little bit and trying to just do a little bit of science communication, so energy and science climate communications at the festival as part of the festival itself as well.

Rosalyn: Yeah, because when you talk about the idea of, preaching to the choir, the amazing thing about festivals. Mobilizing and getting involved in this conversation and, being driven to action here is that, sure. Folk festivals have probably a stigma that Everyone's makes their own granola and deodorant. But in general, you are attracting lot of folks from across the aisle. You know, there's, there's lots of different backgrounds of, of folks and different political ideologies.

And probably just different experience with. Knowledge of, climate change and, climate issues that are coming out.

Do you wanna explain a little bit more about, how Trout forest is involved in that and, what y'all have been doing.

Devin: Yeah, So from that we got some money from Heritage to kind of program, have this [00:08:00] special programming. It was actually during the pandemic, so there was kind of this opportunity presented itself with the pandemic. I suddenly had some more time 'cause I was teaching like this basically on Zoom and, we weren't able to go into the lab anymore. None of my students were in, were involved in the lab. So it was the opportunity to try this out. So we did some remote concert. We put together a solar powered sound system, traveled around southern Manitoba, in northwest Ontario doing these little concerts and had these energy conversations.

And Since the pandemic I've kind of kept the solar powered stage going and I've done these same conversations going at Trout Forest and at Harvest Moon Festival and at Science Rendezvous. And I've been going to high schools and things like that.

And what I'm finding is, especially in the festival world. Just like you said, we have people from all walks of life that come together under those things, and when you're under that umbrella of a kind of a cultural celebration, I just have much more productive conversations. So I feel like we [00:09:00] have the opportunity to have much more productive conversations.

So I have people, like truck drivers coming to these climate change or energy communication events. And farmers, and it's just as useful for me to be talking to them as maybe they're picking up anything from me. I'm finding out why they're so opposed to the carbon tax and what it'll actually mean for their income to suddenly have this.

Carbon tax imposed. I just, I think part of the issue with these communications, is that the conversations are so heated. There are people on both sides of the extreme it's great to be passionate, but I think sometimes the passion ends up stopping the conversations. The useful conversations you can have, and when it comes right down to it, what I find is that every single person, no matter who they are, if they're working in the middle of the oil patch or if they are.

Making their own granola and deodorant at home. Everybody loves the environment. [00:10:00] Everybody loves their certain bit of culture or whatever that is their, their music, their type of music that they're into. almost everybody has a festival that they really love in their neighborhood that they would hate to lose.

And, I know for our family, trope forest is, that's our Christmas. it's bigger than any other gathering for us all year long, and it's the one my kids still look forward to the most and we look forward to the most. And all our friends come and we all camp together every weekend.

And so I just feel like there really is a common ground already there. But the social media and other. Parts of the equations have really gotten in there and stifled a lot of the productive conversations.

Rosalyn: I mean the, the festival, Presumably you're already in a good head space. You

know, you're outside, you're breathing the air, and you want that air to be delicious. Air, you

know,

Devin: Yeah. And you know, like I said, I really do find that if I talk to a farmer or a truck driver out at Harvest Moon Festival. In Southern Manitoba as opposed to if [00:11:00] they were even. Willing to come to campus and have the same conversation. I just don't think it would be, a level playing field.

They would feel like they were being lectured to, and and in many cases they would be being lectured to. So I, I blame the academics as much as anybody for where the state of this is. this is not just a technological fix. We have to realize that. People's way of life is involved. Their economic, impact on their family is involved.

There's social and cultural issues that we all have to take into account, and that's the approach I think we need to,

Rosalyn: Well, you mentioned that everybody has, you know, an event that they like, or a place I wanted to, expand on that in the frame of like vulnerability for festivals because in their music ecosystem. Outdoor live music events are some of the most vulnerable when we're talking about global warming and, and climate change.

Like the, most obvious example is, the, you know, forest fires. you know, we saw what happened in, in Litton, bc and then that. stretched out east. [00:12:00] and that's been brought into our, festivals retreat talk too, because, you know, we started with predominantly Ontario festivals some of whom I think, didn't feel like it was an issue that affected them too much.

And then last summer we saw that you know, those fires came, closer to home and, and the, the air pollution from those fires came closer to home. And, weather is always a factor no matter what too. So, you know, they're not necessarily linked, but can be. So I'm wondering if you can speak to that a little bit and like the vulnerability that festivals are facing.

Devin: no, definitely. that's just it. Like I said, any outdoor event is on the front lines of this crisis, and we are definitely noticing it especially with geographies that are coastal or like you said in bc it's been written up. This is not just within cultural. Circles anymore, either there are articles in the scientific literature about how much of an impact this is having on festivals the festival industry and because it's a very big industry.

So just speaking economically it's very important. and is being [00:13:00] written in, rolling Stone, et cetera. But like there are places where, because of a poly crisis in places like California, the fact that they're not only seeing climate change events, but they're having other climate events which are affecting their insurance industry, which festivals are heavily dependent on out there.

They are very worried that. There will be no festivals in California. Very soon. Didn't. And just imagine that that's like the third biggest economy in the world or something like that. and likewise for BC I think, you know, we've been at festivals in BC where the air has been really smoky.

So first of all, that's, you know, there's the direct impact of just a fire being too close to the festival. But then there's people who cannot attend because of breathing issues or just choose not to attend because of the smoke issues. There's. Artists canceling. festivals as we know you and I know are, are a big link in the whole touring artist schedule.

The thought of losing festivals to this is, is very, very, very serious. And so that gives us an even greater [00:14:00] reason to care about this, but also that is why festivals should do even more work to kind of lead the way. Artists have always led the way in any really good, enlightened revolution in history.

You will always find artists heavily involved in that sort of thing. So For both of these reasons. This is the reason for festivals to get more and more involved and kind of lead the way in terms of sustainability. And maybe you are doing some work in sustainability, but maybe it's just every year you devote a little bit more time to counting your carbon emissions by figuring out there's many tools out there for counting carbon emissions.

Perhaps our funding should go down the route of making sure. That people are playing a role in this. and I, I also put this on myself. I'm an organic chemist. I worked on this one instrument, which I devoted my life to for a really long time, and it was really hard and I got a certain distance with it and it was pretty valuable.

But I've also realized that I think as far as climate change and environmental issues and green chemistry. I feel like [00:15:00] there's something more important out there right now. And so I basically don't do that anymore.

Rosalyn: And I'm just clarifying that when you say instrument in this context, you were talking about a scientific

Devin: yes. Right? Yeah.

Rosalyn: Just double checking because I'm like, you have gotten really far on your instrument.

Devin: That's a good distinction to make. Yes. I worked on a nuclear magnetic resonance spectrometer. For many, or that's, you know, that's what I was heavily involved with and trying to stay up in the literature with that is a full-time job.It's a heavily developed technique now, magnetic MRIs are the new medical offshoot of that. So of course it's quite big stuff. And so I am no longer, I wouldn't even consider myself an NMR Spectroscopist 'cause I'm so far behind in that stuff. But now, and, but what I, what I said all that was for just to say this is why I believe all of us. Should take a little bit of a greater challenge to ourselves to do a little bit better. I believe climate change is, this is wartime [00:16:00] preparation. I think I kind of bore that from a guy by the name of Seth Klein he's a Canadian author that wrote a book on this stuff that, if you consider Nazi Germany invading countries, we rejigged our economy. We all had to. Begin war time preparations to help in the fight against, you know, against that. And so I believe this is the same, I think every single scientists and every single festival organizer doesn't mean you don't have to stop doing what you're doing. But I think we can all just play a little bit of a role towards this. And if we do, then we're golden.

Rosalyn: Yeah, I mean, even using, more recently Covid as an example, massive culture and, and personal mobilization towards a, a common goal

to not get COVID. but that was a three year, effort by, the planet to do that and. I'm sure if we just kept a couple of those things that we did, then, you know, there's like, you know, a couple of those, those efforts, it [00:17:00] would make a difference.

Devin: Look at what we're capable of. When we really put our mind to it, we can't just say, oh, somebody's gotta solve that for us. And you know, we kind of keep looking towards our kids and saying, oh, you guys are gonna have to figure this out. And it, it is for them. But like you said, we're already here and we're already got some sort of brains and so everybody's got something they can.

Contribute towards this,

Rosalyn: it is interesting. you must feel this because you're working in university do you see that climate activism tends to skew younger

Devin: Yeah, for sure. Oh yeah. And in fact, like you said, especially over the last kind of as a. added thing to this doing it at festivals is, I started doing it at high schools recently and what I'm finding is that high school students are even more engaged and more hyper about this, and thankfully, because I think they really do see their future at stake,

Devin: Oh yeah, they, and like I said, they may not be saying it, but there's a lot of anxiety out there with our [00:18:00] youth, and I think it's leading to a lot of the mental health issues and stuff like that. But they are, anyway, when I do this stuff with them, it's even more rewarding because I'm finding they have a million questions about solar energy and electric cars and energy and fossil fuels.

Rosalyn: but in the, in the sense that it, if it's. It's easy to mobilize the young. How do we mobilize then the folks that got all the big money and positions of power?

Devin: Lead by example. And that's another reason why for festivals to get involved, like I said, we have to admit, we are part of the problem. Like flying musicians around the world to play at festivals is certainly not an absolute necessity in terms of, you know, feeding families every day.

But we do it. And so if we are gonna keep doing stuff like that, but say, oh, it's somebody, you know, it's the oil companies, it's all their fault that climate change exists? Well, no, that's not true. If we're demanding the products of oil, we are part of the problem. And so unless we do a little bit better every year and own up to our own roles in [00:19:00] this stuff like I said, I have a, a major problem with myself teaching about this stuff every year for years, seeing it not getting far, and yet I organize a festival four and a half hours away where I am trying to get people to drive five hours

that is part of the problem. All those emissions are part of the problem, but so not to say that I shouldn't be doing it, but maybe I can just do it a little bit better every year. Maybe we can make it a little bit more sustainable every year.

Rosalyn: I'm trying personally, at least to embrace. The narrative or to, to try and, do less self blame.

I'm, I'm trying to make good choices. You know, I've drunk the Kool-Aid. I want climate justice. I wanna battle climate change, trying to make, you know, some, some good, good choices.

But of course, like I could do a, a million times better. There's a billion things that I'm doing that I could say, that's wrong, that's wrong, that's wrong, that's wrong, that's wrong. so trying to just do that little bit of the shift of the narrative that not everything I'm doing is wrong. The thing that we can do that's right, is like having these conversations, [00:20:00] making these choices and, and just channeling some of that, I don't know, climate shame into like climate action.

and maybe climate activism is the right word there. Like, and channeling it more into, into that, that activism. you know, focusing on the, like, what can we do? what are the things that, you know, and festivals in particular are such a great example because with folk festivals, you know, I feel like There are so many things that folk festivals are already doing that are such great examples of environmental sustainability. there always can be more. There always can be more, but there's some really great examples right now that, folk festivals have been doing for a long time, like reusable.

Place reusable, water bottles, recycling and compost stations. You know, working like more in depth with like their indigenous leaders in the community. And, and, folks like to understand the land and the place that they are. There's, there's lots of different ways that festivals have been kind of towing the line of environmental sustainability.

But there is now this opportunity, I think, to up the [00:21:00] game. I would love to just like frame that next step and like a, a really positive, like, what can we do to, instead of looking at what we're doing and being like, oh, we shouldn't have flown that artist in from, Mexico because it was too far, but maybe they were talking about something really important when it came to their culture or social justice or climate action. And, we can justify those expenditures because it's spreading joy and love and culture to the audience. But there are some, like, I don't know, like I'd love to talk about some of, we, I know we spoke about it a bit at the, festivals retreat, but I'd love to bring up some of those examples of like, Positive ways that people can help kind of amplify these messages and amplify the actions folks can take.

Devin: I agree. Like many festivals have been. Incredibly proactive in doing, you know, something new and something a little better every year. And and that is exactly what we need.

Whereas others just wanna keep the status quo and they kinda wanna, keep growing but they might almost look at their su the sustainability thing [00:22:00] as, ah, yeah, we gotta do that just to play our role, or, and let's just keep that going that's enough for now.

And I just think that's very similar to the regular. Or you know, a person who has a job and just says, ah, you know, I put my recycling in a blue bin. Somebody else can figure out the, have the complicated parts. And that's where I think nothing gets done. 'cause our, planet is growing, missions are growing, and we, we have to start working in the other direction.

And we also wanna do it now while we still have festivals, we still have from economy, we, because. Eventually, if we lose all of this, it'll be because there's an emergency going on of perhaps climate related issues and it's gonna be too late. You know, if we do it now, it'll be just a little bit of work and actually really rewarding work when you're, when you're going at it, or I find it to be anyways.

As opposed to it being this drastic emergency issue where, [00:23:00] where there's floods going on and stuff like that. So I now's the time.

Rosalyn: And you know, there's an interesting you know, you, you said, oh, people have to drive, five hours to get to us. But in my opinion, I wanna highlight the importance of smaller festivals to this ecosystem because especially somewhere like, I mean, across Canada, really, it's, it kind of applies all over Canada, where, you know, some communities just have like one big festival and everybody, has to, get to that one place.

The more that we have smaller festivals and communities in smaller communities across Canada, you know, I think that that's one really great reason for the government to invest in new festivals and, you know, up their investment in the smaller festivals to make sure that they can keep going because these are investments in that local community.

And easing some of that, we know that the artists are, you know, maybe you're gonna have 20 to 70 artists that are coming in from all over versus like. 35,000 people coming in for, [00:24:00] you know, like all the other folks that are traveling into the, place that, you're showcasing those artists.

Devin: Yeah. No, and I agree. Like I said, I certainly am involved with Trump Forest and I see all of the value in it. To me, driving five hours into the bush and spending a weekend there is well worth it for many other reasons, and I think it's worth it for all people just to. Get us all back in touch with the environment to realize how in, valuable it is, it enables us to bring these conversations and cultural movements into those areas that might not see a lot of this stuff.

So the, like I said that is exactly what I mean about maybe just doing a little bit more every year if we possibly can. I would like to, if it was up to me, I would encourage our policymakers. To completely keep funding festivals, fund all of those that are already going and have done the good work.

But if it were up to me, funding would be tied to making the world a little bit of a better place every single year. And not just the status quo because unfortunately this is one issue that [00:25:00] is not. getting better with the status quo. I think we have to start bringing it the other way, so

Rosalyn: Absolutely, and it's, it's. Totally. possible. another kind of file upload in a grand application for folks. But I do think that there's like a, proactive way that our policymakers can approach this as well. Instead of it being, we're gonna set this goal for the carbon emissions.

And that's, and only looking at it from like a, a footprint, a carbon footprint standpoint and looking at it more of like a, a project based or initiative based reward system in a way. You know, of like, what are you doing? what are some of the climate initiatives you're taking?

What is your climate, Policy. Do you have an environmental action policy for your festival,

Devin: and you know, another thing that you and I know a lot about and everybody in the festival world knows lots about is this amazing superpower that all festivals have called the. Festival, volunteer. When I tell my normal colleagues around these halls the university halls [00:26:00] about these people, they, they literally cannot believe it.

That we basically have, you know what? I would be hiring all my research assistants to do that. All these festivals have these people, and they all do it for free just because they love it. Some people volunteer at like three or four festivals a year. They book their holidays around it, and these are the most.

Ecologically active, warriors that you could possibly ask for too. So if festivals just, they could probably offload a lot of this onto this volunteer base that they already have,

Rosalyn: All you need is to put somebody out in a parking lot in the middle of the summer

for, you know, five hours a day, and they all of a sudden are gonna get really worried about global

Devin: Right. Yes, exactly. That's what we should do. That's right. We should put all the,

Rosalyn: Naysayers get traffic duty.

Devin: take this this vest and go stand in this parking lot. But yeah, no, they would probably, but like you said, when I I basically did this whole project during the pandemic. There were, I mean, I was able to hire [00:27:00] artists and hire a sound techs and all that and do these events, but a lot of the other people were just volunteers and they came along for the ride. They did it just 'cause they loved trout forest. They did it because they liked doing this kinda work. And they took it on and they were all able to give something a little back and I think they got a lot out of it as well.

So I hired a volunteer that was just used to, he was a construction. Guy. So he basically built all these things for the solar panels that were able to move them around and hauling the gear. Like these people love to contribute as well. Everybody, feels better when they're doing something good.

Rosalyn: it's amazing what you do and what you've managed to do with, with Trout Forest and, and what that community has done with their commitment.

Devin: really awesome out there.

Rosalyn: what's one action, what's one thing that folks could think about when they're approaching their festival or, or live music event.

Devin: so for me, what I see, I think as a real clog in these discussions is science, communication. And like you said, having, so if [00:28:00] you are part of a festival, or especially if you are one of the organizers of a festival, what you have is an amazing venue for getting this stuff out.

So I would just say there are academics at universities or there are people working in all sorts of the industry that want to do this kind of community interaction and talk to people. There's probably people out there that want to set up a solar powered something at your festival, and so just do your best at making the connection with a local person.

Like myself that might want to do that. This has been really, like you said, we can get a grant to do promo science, science communications, but then having this festival that I'm involved with just helps me, multiply that fivefold.

Rosalyn: And then we have lots of artists as well that are, probably listening to this conversation. how can we bring artists into the fold then to Scientists wanna talk to artists,

is that, a good connection to make?

Devin: yes. I think this is also an initiative that fits in perfectly with the, the whole slow [00:29:00] touring thing, because when, rather than just having an artist come to a community and perhaps play a show and then bolt outta town the next day, if an artist can pick up some knowledge about how to do some science communications, talk about energy, talk about climate change, maybe do some solar technology, somebody like Jackson, with any of the musical projects that he plays in. If you can also get a daytime workshop in song rating as well as science communications out of these artists, it enables them to have a more balanced life.

And this is something that. The artists can be coming to this community and bringing, besides their art. and by doing that you're also developing this whole nother backup plan. for those days. You don't wanna be on the road. There's lots of this kinda work for when you're back at home.

There might be times when you do just wanna stay at home if you're a touring artist, so you know, you might have kids or something. Right? Rosalin

and then. Suddenly, suddenly you're not touring quite as much or it's pretty, it's a little bit more difficult. And so yeah, all of these added skills that you might pick up along the way [00:30:00] by becoming more involved in this stuff can really help out your life that way, I think as well.

Rosalyn: Yeah, and there's some other organizations like I think your suggestion of communicating with science departments and, universities is really, really great. And, you know, maybe we can help some folks out with, like, facilitating connections if anybody, would like to do that, if you'll, you'll be so kind.

Devin: You know, as a, and then again, also as part of a festival, one of the best. People for me to have made a connection with was David Barnard through Canadian and Troy Green Corn so another festival organizer. But their festival, the Cancel, the Stan Rogers Festival was canceled one year because of a hurricane, so a climate event.

And so just seeing a whole year of work. Get canceled because of this hurricane and potentially wipe out the festival for good because of economic reasons. Though it didn't, the community came together and saved the festival. Is the wake up call that a lot of us might get someday.

So why, why wait until it gets to that point? these things are happening just 'cause it's [00:31:00] not on your doorstep right now doesn't mean we should all wake up a little.

Rosalyn: that seems like a good, partying warning. Was that an encouragement? I think it was encouragement.

Devin: absolutely. And a warning slash

encouragement

Rosalyn: know, for, for people who are feeling like that, that overwhelm or that kind of self-criticism or self-doubt that maybe, there's too much to do. One person can't, make a change. So what's the point? Or, feeling negative about, and train into any sort of like action or, or activism because they don't think they can make a difference. Do you have a message for folks who are feeling that way?

Devin: You might not understand climate change or carbon emissions or carbon counting, but no matter what, we all have a role to play in this.

Rosalyn: Here's my call to action then, for folks who are really, just starting out,

Go to a folk festival in your community. Go to a music festival, an outdoor, I'm gonna say outdoor specifically. Go to outdoor music festival in your community and see what they're doing.

Try to look around you and notice the things that are being done And maybe it's something said from the stage, [00:32:00] maybe it's, those wonderful, volunteers going around and, you know, on an environmental crew maybe it's the reusable plate program, but, but go to a festival and see what, folks are doing and see if you can pick up some inspiration of how you can take some of that action home with you.

Devin: And I'm gonna add to your call of action and say, carpool out to that festival and go with a bunch of people. You'll have a better time. You'll all learn a little more. Enjoy

Rosalyn: I'm gonna add to that and say put Nathan and and Leaf Rapids on your playlist

Devin: right. Oh my God. Exactly.

Download them, download them all. Get your Leaf Rapids and Nathan merch on Walk around.

Rosalyn: Yeah. Devon, as always a pleasure to chat with you and we'll put some links in the show notes for some of the stuff that we've talked about as well, so folks can check out Trout Forest and what you've done there and, maybe listen to some of your tunes and get to know you a little better.

And I hope we get to uh, chat again soon.

Devin: Sounds good. Thanks Rosalyn. Great to

Rosalyn: Devin.

Devin: see [00:33:00] you. Bye. Bye.