Art is Activism with OKAN

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Refolkus. Our guest today is Elizabeth Rodriguez from OKAN. Charged with the profound power of their African ancestry, OKAN takes their name from the word for heart in the Afro Cuban religion of Santeria.

Rosalyn: Fusing these Cuban roots with jazz, folk and global rhythms, OKAN delivers songs about immigration, resistance and joy in Spanish, Yoruba and Spanglish. Hot off their Tiny Desk NPR Alt Latino debut and a tour supporting Grammy winners Rodrigo y Gabriela, OKAN's recent release Okantomi was awarded the [00:01:00] 2024 Juno award and included in NPR Alt Latino, LeMond and CBC Music's best of 2023 lists.

OKAN is co-led by Cuban born Grammy and Latin Grammy nominees, violinist and vocalist, Elizabeth Rodriguez, and her wife, percussionist and vocalist, Magdelys Savigne. Hello, Elizabeth. How are you doing?

OKAN: Hi, I'm very good. Thank you so much for having me.

Rosalyn: I'm so excited to talk to you. This is the first time that I've seen you since I saw you walking across the stage to accept your Juno award. it's been a bit of a time since then, I can imagine for you. How are you feeling? How are you doing?

OKAN: I'm good. I'm good. After that, that year was extremely busy. Right after that, we just, And then started on, on a tour, 19 days on an RV opening for Rodrigo and Gabriela all over the East coast. And it was very challenging. But at the same time, so cool and rewarding and we haven't stopped ever since it was like, literally that was the [00:02:00] tip of the iceberg. And then after that, we just went into crazy mode.

Rosalyn: Well, just prior to us pressing record here, we were chatting a little bit about that moment of, winning the Juno. and you, you mentioned something that I wanted to make sure that, we got to talk about which was just the, feeling of creating something that you love, creating something that, you have a connection to and then the anxiety of like, what if this doesn't win or like the kind of idea that you're entering it into some sort of competition. Can you talk a little bit about that feeling?

OKAN: Well, like I was explaining, I never like competitions because it is just that disconnection in between what you felt creating the music and then what other people feel when they hear your music, and I know that we make music For other people to listen to and enjoy it and all of that. And the ultimate is like people enjoy it and receive it with the same intention that you gave it to. But honestly, that's not real. This is not the way it happens. You create the music and then people receive it the way [00:03:00] they do. And for that album, particularly, we were so happy with what we created, what we accomplished.

And we were telling ourselves, because we have been together for so long. We have these secret codes and this very deep conversation that is only between the two of us. So we were like, yeah, it's okay. This is cool, but we cannot change our love because of a competition.

So we cannot change the feeling that we already have for this music, for this album. We were so happy with the final results and everything that happened leading to that, we were like, well, what if we wouldn't win? And we, the one thing that we kept saying to each other, we cannot change that enough. We cannot change that. But then in those very few seconds right before, when they were telling your category and if we didn't even have a speech, you see, because part of us was thinking that we were not going to win. So we actually did not prepare a speech. And that's why I got so nervous. I [00:04:00] forgot a lot.

I'm the biggest procrastinator. And I was like, nah, I wouldn't do the speech because the first time we won the Juno, it was online. So it was, this was the first time that we were there in present. So anyways, yes, I recommend people not to create a disconnection in between what you actually feel before or after any competition or anything.

Rosalyn: And, the awards keep coming. I'm super excited that OKAN is the recipient of the 2025 Rising Tide Award at this year's International Folk Music Awards. You're in very good company there, some, really amazing artists and activists have won this award. What does it mean to you to be recognized for this?

OKAN: Well, proving many people wrong when it comes to speaking up and staying vocal about some serious issues that some people in the industry might say that, if you really want to break through, don't talk about this and talk about that. Don't say [00:05:00] these things. I found that what needed to change was the way I delivered the message.

I am very frontal. I am a person that sometimes can be perceived as rude just because I say things very plain and simple and open. And I needed to have a block of ice in my head before I would say the message. And I have learned to use humor a lot in my shows to talk about serious issues and things like we talk about dictatorship.

We talk about the things that happen in Cuba. We talk about immigration. And although our shows are not just that, the message is always underlying the lyrics. And I do explain in the shows what we're talking about because most of our songs are in Spanish and our audience is mostly English speaking. So it means a lot to be recognized. in moments like this for staying true to yourself, to your art, to bring the communities together, for the education work that we do, because we teach a [00:06:00] lot. We are involved in social programs like Sistema and stuff like that, to bring music to people that probably didn't have the opportunity.

And, we think that music saved our lives. If it wasn't because of music, we wouldn't have been able to get out of Cuba or have more opportunities and a better life. So for us, it's extremely important to share the gift of music with our community and with the younger generations and to talk about the truth of what real immigrants and real people, especially from Cuba, go through.

Rosalyn: Right now, as has happened in the past, we're going through a time of like political turmoil and, and, I would call quite a challenging political climate right now, and I do believe that music, as you said, has the power to save our lives and the lives of others. Do you have some words of, of even just like encouragement for people to, feel empowered to speak their truths and, and to write music of, you know, resistance or political change?

OKAN: I think that that [00:07:00] is exactly why artists are meant to be on this earth, to shake things up and to question everything. And that is my main advice to every single human that does not believe all the time the status quo or questioning. It is the one key that will save us. Because what keeps happening is that people keep believing one side or the other side.

And nobody's questioning or little people, just a few people are questioning either method, We're not even talking about right or left front. No, we're talking about plain and simple questioning of whatever method we are in. If it doesn't work, if something doesn't work, we all have the responsibility to say, why?

Why is this not working for us? And I think artists have the responsibility to check things up because all the people are too busy in their world and working and going from point A to point B and whatever, [00:08:00] and artists have that connection, that divine connection that we are, we were put on earth for, which is speaking truth that others might not have the possibility to Do the bridge and connect with others. And for me is that for absolutely every single human or artist that is out there needs to be questioning what is happening all the time.

Rosalyn: You know, I think it also takes a lot of bravery and I think that you guys have been especially brave in being able to, you know, not just question it and deliver a message, but also talk about your own personal experiences. What is that like for you? And, would you encourage others to be able to do the same.

OKAN: Listen, I only write about my personal experiences. I cannot write about absolutely anything else. And I feel that that is the way that I can connect. First of all, to myself and, and I've been doing some serious work, me and Max, actually both of us in, in personal work and, and therapy and stuff like that in order to, you know, that [00:09:00] questioning that everybody has on their thirties, like, who am I, what am I doing is the thirties thing is the crisis of the thirties. And we have talked about even, there was a song about our marriage, not going through the best moment or. What is going to come for the next album is very, very deep because all the time when people hear Okan or when they talk about us, they put this word, joy. That is just like the one thing that it keeps happening. And this year, this past year, we went through some serious thing in our personal lives. Dealing with betrayal from friendship and dealing with narcissists. People. And that is a theme that I'm taking to the next album, that people are gonna be like, okay, what happened to them? ? Why? Why this is not as joyful,

Because I wanted to show people that, Hey, wait a second. Well, you cannot tag me into this joy thing all the time because this is not real. That is not [00:10:00] true. This past year was completely bananas for us mentally. And all of the songs that came out throughout the last couple of years are very, very intense when it comes to the topic of self love.

Self care putting yourself in that protection mode because I want to teach people that the only way To save yourself from a situation like that. It is through self love and I've encountered several narcissist characters Right? Because, you know, it starts with a father and then you find a husband that it just mimics that and then a friend and so I realized that it was in so many different areas of our lives, and he needed to talk about that.

And I needed to tell people the truth because the only thing about narcissistic people is that people are so traumatized after these experiences that they don't talk about it. They just like to run away. They just shut down, close that chapter and move on. But nobody actually comes and tells the [00:11:00] story or shares the story of what happened.

And now we have a cultural conversation going through it and our album is going to be about that and we might shock some people because the joy is not going to be like as joyful but the one thing that we're doing is that we're changing the production so the production is going to be a lot more modern and beats and more like commercial so the conversation is deep but the music is going to be in a whole different level so yeah. Talk about real experiences. Yeah. That's what's coming.

Rosalyn: Well, you know, you said that, oh, it's not so much joy, but you're saying that really the, theme of it is self love,

OKAN: I'm still getting through the whole concept because what I want to tell people later on is more that positive message. The healing process. of going through these kind of situations and finding the love for yourself so you can love, respect and put yourself in that perspective.

Rosalyn: You know, I think it's probably something that a lot of [00:12:00] folks even might not know that they're in that kind of situation. I mean, narcissism is, I would say that the music industry is a place where narcissism is. can grow pretty, what's right, it's like the Petri dish for it, right?

It's, you know, you're encouraged to, talk about yourself and yourself as the brand and, and all that kind of stuff. And I'm sure there are people who, can identify with, I'm wondering if you can go back to what you were saying before about using therapy, in kind of working through that and talk a little bit about that process of like, you Kind of healing through first of all, like professional, like seeking out professional help, but then also channeling it through the music.

OKAN: I was doing things on my own, reading things and following certain accounts and things that are helping you in your development. But then when I found out, like literally the day that I found out that I was pregnant, I talked to my [00:13:00] best friend who was doing this kind of therapy already.

And also I noticed that the more she advanced into this work, the further our distance in between where I was thinking, where I was and where she was thinking. And I was like, I'm losing you. She's my, she's my best friend since we were 10 years old. We have a very special connection. And I remember Seeing her kind of, you know, like when you see somebody grow and elevate and, and tell you these kinds of things and I'm like, I don't understand what you're saying.

Like, what is happening? Where are you going? Why are you so elevated? Why are you so superior? And you know that, that thing that people feel when you see others saying, no, it's not about them. It's about you and all that and you're like, okay. Listen, I'm not getting you and I need to get these classes so I can continue our friendship because you're going all the way there.

So I found out I'm pregnant and I said, okay, now this is serious. I [00:14:00] have to take care of myself and my traumas and my pain so I can deal with somebody else. Because now I'm going to have to be dealing with somebody else. And that I can tell that is one of the best decisions that I have ever made in my life because I know, I can see how I raise him differently just because of the knowledge that I have now, that if I wouldn't have access to that knowledge, I will be repeating things from my parents or my, my lineage, especially I come from a culture where things are completely different than the way that things are handled here.

The way I was raised is completely different than in the country that I'm raising my son. So I needed to learn things because It is important. So that was what made me just take the action right away. And it has helped me so much for absolutely everything, or the way I teach, because now I treat my students.

[00:15:00] differently because I can see things and behaviors that at another moment I would have taken as, you know, my ego would have taken it differently. But now I know this is a different way to manage this situation. And then with music, when it comes to music, finding out who I really am, what are the things that really connect with me and bother me, and, you know, taking all those layers off that society put on us, or the teacher, or the school, you know, everything that we keep accumulating over time, but then when we're in this journey of finding Our inner real person, we take so many layers off that no, I, I'm really not like this.

I'm really in a, a typical example is I was trained in classical and, you know, being the tools or, or making music that it was difficult. it was part of like, this is who we are. This is what we do. But since I was little, I would make songs that are very catchy. But all those songs, I've, I put them [00:16:00] aside.

I'm like, no, no, no, this is too easy. No, no, no. This is too catchy. And now I'm like, wait a second. I make songs that are very catchy and I need some money. I will use this catchy side for certain things. And then I will be doing my thing. I will keep doing my own thing. You know, that this project with the dancer and I will make contemporary music and all that, but I cannot just dismiss this girl that can actually make hits. You know, she's in me and she needs to eat. So I'm more into that now of allowing all sides of me to come up.

Rosalyn: That's really interesting. Cause you're, there's probably a lot of folks who identify with that, of just like containing multitudes there's not just one musician in you or one writer or one, you know, so it's amazing to be able to access. different parts of your creative personality in that way. Cause you do, you do write bops. You got some catchy tunes, but you're all, you know, you mentioned this like virtuosic training. I mean, you're an incredible violinist and I warned you that I was going to, [00:17:00] Probably ask you some, some fiddle questions. Because it's what I do. When I get to talk to another fiddler wondering if you can go into a bit about the transition of, of your, Playing style. So, you know, you're exceptionally trained. so much technique and skill on your instrument. where did that kind of transition from the more kind of strict classical background transition into, you know, kind of embracing other, other styles and getting more creative with it.

OKAN: That journey wasn't easy. I'm not going to lie to you. That journey started when I was little, but I didn't know that. I've always had a love for Cuban music, but back home, my violin teacher was Ukrainian. And I always wanted to sing. I mean, I started singing in a choir when I was three years old. And then as violin got very serious, my violin teacher didn't allow me to keep going into a choir and singing. She was like, no more singing because you have to focus on the violin. And that hurt me badly. That was [00:18:00] like, again, therapy brought that up. That hurt me badly, badly. And When I was a teenager, I was part of the symphony orchestra, part of the chamber orchestra, so all classical all the time.

But then there was this charanguita, charanga is a music ensemble that plays Cuban music, more traditional, son, danzon, and all that. And there was this older band, una charanguita, at school. So I also put myself in there. And that's when I started Singing again doing violin, Cuban violin. And I, and I learned all these like tricks for Cuban violin and reading Cuban music, it is a whole different level.

The syncopation of reading and all of that, it is really, really hard. And those arrangements, so that helped me reading Cuban music. But still my main dish, my main thing was, you know, classical music. I was in this orchestra. I was playing with Guido Lopez Gavilan, which is like I was the concertmaster of the youth orchestra.

I was like. [00:19:00] Then I left Cuba to go to Canada for a classical festival called Broad Music Festival in Hamilton. That's how I got to Canada. And then I spent three months playing classical music, everything. And that festival is incredible because it is for three months. It is for Canadians to rehearse.

You rehearse for like four or five days and then you have a show for five days and then you have a show for three months. I played more music during that festival than in my entire career in Cuba. It was crazy. And then when that festival ended and I stayed in Canada, I had nothing else to do. And that's when my journey to Cuban music started because people would look at me saying, Oh, you're Cuban. You play violin, come here and sing salsa. And I had like zero training in singing salsa. I was like, what? And I was so nervous because I respect a lot, you know, the, the, people that sing salsa or song, like they have to improvise the, the, the stage management is a whole different thing. And that takes time. Many years to [00:20:00] develop like the way I behave on stage now, of course. Is that absolutely nothing to do with eight years ago? If somebody brings a video out of that, I'm dead. I'll be like, please. So that's when my connection with writing music again started Little by little, I started finding myself in projects that were more about Cuban music.

And I started playing with Jane Monette and Markeke. And then that's when I was like, okay, wait a second. I'm surrounded by all these girls that play a lot. And when I started in Jane Monette, I did not have the capabilities that I have now improvising. So I had to Whoa, I need to study Cuban music. I need to study a little bit of jazz, but on my own, I haven't done anything with anybody, violinists that teaches me anything. So everything I do is because I always had that ear, my ear and, and I always liked it, but as a method. I have never done that. And please forgive me if I disappoint [00:21:00] you. . everything I do, I do is based on the knowledge I have of Cuban music and the experience on stage. So I have developed everything on stage.

Rosalyn: That's so interesting. And, like, what a journey think a lot of people violinists in particular have gone through maybe not the same story in terms of like the immigration aspect of it, but the migration kind of out of that classical and trying to find your roots and embracing.

More folk or improvising. that can be real. Big challenge when you've dedicated your life to something very kind of strict such a trip. And also like, I'm really interested in, how you led that kind of independent study too. Were you listening to albums? Were you like going on YouTube? Like what was inspiring you?

OKAN: Listen, it's very hard for me to listen to all the violinists. Can you believe that?

Rosalyn: I can fully believe that.

OKAN: I found one guy literally in November, in Miami. I went to the show. And there's this guy that 's Venezuelan and he [00:22:00] translated absolutely everything that the Venezuelan cuatro does is so virtuosic. He's actually, he plays with, with the symphony of Paris. He's like an absolutely mind blowing violinist. And this was the first time that I heard somebody say, Oh my God, what did you do?

Why? Because he translated the Cuatro, which is a Venezuelan instrument, like an ukulele, but it's not an ukulele, it's called Cuatro, into violin. And the way I improvise, it's a lot like Tres, Tres is the Cuban version of Cuadroso, it has double strings. three sets of double strings or six strings. And it's a Cuban instrument.

And the way that the he improvises, it's the way I really like to improvise. It's a lot of syncopation. It's a lot of songs and traditional things. And when I heard that guy doing that, I was like, ah, now we're talking because I kind of like to discover myself what I do [00:23:00] basically. But I listen to Cuban music.

Of course I've been surrounded by incredible musicians like Jeremy Labetter. Like when that guy improvises, it's like mind blowing. I did have a moment. I'm going to Jeremy's house to, you know, to study and do more harmony things. Because for me, the theory per se, you know, like this chord, it's C7. That doesn't mean anything to me. I don't care. Just play the chord. And I talk on top of that. I play on top of that. I keep telling people that like, no, because this isn't the middle. Just play. And I would be, and I do know the theory because I mean, I, I studied it, but I don't care. I like, that is something that as soon as people talk to me in chords, my brain shuts like, no, just play the music. And I will follow it because my ear goes, it is easier for me that way. But. Being surrounded by people, listening to music, doing things on my own and trying to develop and I should [00:24:00] Study more. I should practice a lot more. But the hell nobody's gonna kick me out of my band. It's my

Rosalyn: I fully relate to, to what you're, talking about in terms of like improvisation and, listening to versus, you know, thinking about it intellectually when you're in those moments to each their own, you know, we all have our own journey there.

And it's really easy to talk about how to improvise or how to do that when you're looking at a method. And it's less easy to explain it when you're like, I just feel it. Right. So I think it's less popular to explain how to improvise in that way. But certainly I think a lot of people probably can relate to approaching the music in that way.

So now you have several things on, the go you mentioned something about, some more kind of contemporary work with the dancer that sounded really interesting.

OKAN: That is something that we cannot believe that it just happened. came into our lives. Rodney, she is a genius of the dance world. Honestly, what we talk about, what we want to do, it's like entering into this magical world. And She takes [00:25:00] humans and human life experiences and actually illnesses and take that illness and create the whole thing out of it. She did one about heart disease and stuff like that and the videos are incredible and very impressive. And now we're doing another one. She called us, she's from, you know, Heritage. Haiti and the connection that we have there with Max, because Max, her last name is Sabine and that comes from Haiti as well.

And the stories that she's saying, the music that she wants. So it's a whole process. I actually will be in Montreal. in the studio with them. And it is a project that will take us a long time to develop, but I think it is a great opportunity for us to create music that is completely outside of the box to give us the opportunity.

I'm even daring to play piano. and composing on vocals, violins, and using chants and her creative process is unique. I have never seen anything like [00:26:00] it. So we're very proud to be part of this and we're collaborating with several producers. For our next album, the producers that this era has, which is, you know, computer and beats and things like that, that before our minds were very close to, no, this is not going to make music because we come from the analog world. But we're understanding that music is a lot bigger and. taking all this prejudice down and saying, okay, wait a second. These people, these young people have something to teach me. and I want to be part of it. And also the message that we have in the next album is so deep and so intense that we wanted to give the music Less busy because as you can tell, you know, music is very busy and complicated and we wanted to like, Okay, let me give you this pill. A little easier to swallow. But also because I want to keep learning. We want to keep learning from the way that the music industry works right now, which is very [00:27:00] messed up. But we just want to learn and see what happens. And what other project raising a three year old child that has is pretty busy.

Rosalyn: I, you know, I was actually, I was hoping that we could chat about that for a moment too, because when we're talking about like activism and, social political change, you know, one of the things that inspired me so much about, about seeing you perform was, you're performing at a festival.

And at one point in your son, just kind of, wandered on stage and, and everyone was super cool. I think he like sat on Jeremy's lap, you know, and while he played the piano and it was, it was just so, lovely and organic and, there was no judgment or, No one was coming up to rush to get them off. And it was really lovely actually for the audience, I think, to witness the kind of multigenerational aspect to the, to the culture and music But, you know, as a parent and parents in, the music industry and, and, and performing, you know, that must've been a choice I'm guessing at some point, or, how did you [00:28:00] get to the point where you felt like comfortable bringing your child with you or, or was that not a choice and you just, was that a necessity?

OKAN: No, it was a plan. We know that having a career and, and becoming big artists and stuff like that has a price. Everybody has to pay different dues. We did not want to pay the motherhood dues. We were like, no, we are becoming mothers. Although it's a little bit extra harder for two women. And we wanted to bring our child with us.

That was a plan from before having a child. Like we have lists of things that we make every year. We make a list of things. And we always said we want to have a child and we want to continue working and bring him with us. And every time we still, it's hard for us to see it and pinches because we were like, we're doing what we said that we were going to do.

And one thing that I did have as a plan was that I knew that we had to have support. Okay. [00:29:00] for that first year, at least first and second year. And we did, so we didn't have kids until we were able to bring somebody from our families. So until they didn't have visas, we didn't start trying to get pregnant.

So that's one thing. The second thing was Otto's first rehearsal was when he was three weeks old. Yeah, you need to understand that he's been on the road since he was three weeks old. And his first tour was when he was four months old. Then we took him to Europe when he was eight months old with Bomba Estadio, which is a huge Colombian band and we were all over Europe with our eight months tour with this huge band that has like thousands of people.

We're like, we're definitely crazy now. But then we thought that we were crazy at that moment, but then we went with him on tour in an RV without ever, ever, ever, being in an RV before or in a camp, any of those things. And we just took him for 19 dates for an entire month in an RV camping. And he loved it.

[00:30:00] It was just fantastic, but it was a decision that was taken way before. That's the life that he knows. He loves it. Actually, we have been without. Traveling for like two months now and he's like, when are we going, when I'm going, I want to go to his favorite cities, New York.

He comes randomly and says, I want to go to New York. I'm like, excuse me. So it's like part of it. And the best part for me is that seeing him, how he will be bigger than us. I know that day one, but for now I'm just grinding in here and eventually he will be bigger than us. Because now, by then, we will know how this industry works.

Rosalyn: It takes a lifetime to figure out, well, I, I wanna just like, thank you for that because I feel like it was really inspiring for me to see as a mom also in the industry. And just parenting in general. It’s been inspiring to watch you guys,

OKAN: But it's not perfect. I do want to say that it's not perfect. And of course, people only post the nice moments. But I have, I [00:31:00] have posted the crisis momentarily, so people don't lose perspective. But we do need support and money. That's all you need. In order to do that, to go on tour with your kids, you just need support, like somebody else.

They are helping you when you have to focus for your moment to get into your zone and money to pay those people. It's a simple answer.

Rosalyn: That's it, that's all we need, write that down, people in charge of the money. Is there something that you could maybe like, leave like a little nugget of advice or wisdom for, for folks, or maybe just some inspiration for folks who are kind of struggling right now in the music industry or as musicians do you have any advice?

OKAN: So much, so much, so much. But I can resume it in one way. You have to have an unwavering belief on what you do or what you want. And at the same time, be open to change because staying rigid and if [00:32:00] you keep doing the same thing over and over and over and it doesn't do anything, it is not about what you're doing, it's about how you're doing it sometimes. And I find that everybody's struggling at whatever level they are.

So I have had that epiphany multiple times where I'm struggling, but then people come to me and tell me that where I am, it is where they want to be. And then I'm here wanting to be where somebody else is. And. It is just annoying to know that the answer is always time. It takes time. It doesn't matter how well you do it.

This industry requires plenty of time and data so people believe. The one thing that we cannot do is just give up because it takes many years to be doing while you're doing so people can hear it like now I remember the first time that we we did vocal ions we didn't even know what that was I [00:33:00] couldn't even grasp What meant that conference?

What was it? Music conference. What? I couldn't understand. The second time I went, that's when I started kind of understanding the concept. And then the third time it's like, Oh, now I know what to do. And that is just with one thing. It's like going into a conference, imagine all the many other things that we have to do. But that belief inside that when you really believe that you're meant to do that, and that is your purpose, Nobody can come and take that away. And, it is hard. It is very, very hard. You need support from friends and family to stay in this long career.

Rosalyn: Thank you so much, Elizabeth. It's been so wonderful to talk to you. I'm so excited about the projects you have coming up. We'll make sure to link to your. website and, and I heartily encourage everyone to follow Okan online and on all the social media and I hope to see you very soon.

OKAN: Thank you so much.
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