Economic Resiliency in Canada's Independent Music Sector with Andrew Cash

RFU57 - Andrew Cash
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[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Refolkus. Our guest today is Andrew Cash. Andrew Cash is the president and CEO of the Canadian Independent Music Association, also known as CIMA, the voice of Canada's independent music sector. As a member of parliament from 2011 to 2015, Cash championed the music sector while raising awareness of the realities of making a living in Canada as arts and culture workers. He continued this mission post Parliament co-founding the nonprofit Urban Worker Project as a singer, songwriter, producer and [00:01:00] performer.

Rosalyn: Cash spent 25 years touring and recording first in the post punk band L'Étranger, followed by a successful solo career, as well as several collaborations, including The Cash Brothers with Peter Cash, Sky Diggers, and Jason Collette. He has created soundtrack music for television, including a series composer for Dragons Den. Cash has released over a dozen records and his contributions as an artist have earned him a Juno Award and three SOCAN awards.

Welcome Andrew. How are you doing?

Andrew: I am good. Thanks.

Rosalyn: I'm so glad to have a chance to chat with you. There's a lot going on in the world of CIMA at the moment. but first of all, I wanted to wish you and the, uh, company a, a happy birthday. You've got a big birthday coming up, huh?

Andrew: That's right, 2025. We turned 50.

Rosalyn: 50 years. Congratulations. And I'm wondering if we can, start off by explaining a bit about cima and what you've been doing for the last 50 years. For anybody who might not be familiar with the organization,

Andrew: I'm just over [00:02:00] three years in this position, but CIMA, was initially formed by a handful of Canadian owned record labels and Canadian producers in the seventies at a point where the Canadian music sector was virtually dominated by the US industry.

And, there was a movement, a cultural movement that also kind of filtered its way up to the political, Policymakers as well to start to build instruments and regulations that would help foster a Canadian music industry. Now that didn't happen really by accident. It happened in many ways because of the advocacy work of.

This group that banded together to form CIMA 50 years ago, which at that time was called CIRPA, the Canadian Independent Record Producers Association. and you know, the nucleus of that team, of those founders really made a huge impact. A [00:03:00] positive impact on the Canadian music industry that all of us really are, reaping the benefits of today.

CIMA has been a strong advocate both on the policy level. It was on the ground floor creating Factor. Radio Star Maker, which is now called Canadian Star Maker Fund. Has been instrumental in bolstering and strengthening Canadian content regulations on radio and various ways in which copyright law has helped strengthen the Canadian music industry too.

So on a policy level, it is you know, a really key voice for the Canadian owned music sector. And I wanna stress Canadian owned, because there's really two music industries in Canada. They exist in connection to each other, but they are very different.

And the one that CIMA represents are Canadian owned companies that are trying to develop Canadian businesses in music [00:04:00] that are successful and can promote and develop and support excellent Canadian artists in every genre. to find audiences both in Canada and on the world stage.

That's essentially what CIMA does.

Rosalyn: And this is in contrast to when we're talking about major labels, we're talking about multinational corporations that are, not owned, outright by Canadian companies.

Andrew: So yeah, the other music industry is represented by foreign owned multinationals who do business in Canada and their raison debt is to sell global stars to the Canadian market. That is why they're here. That is not why Canadians who work for these companies are working for them, and you know, we need to be clear on that.

Everybody loves Canadian music. Everyone wants to see Canadians, the Canadian music industry thrive. When we're talking about the business of music, there are two businesses. One is developing in Canada. Artists for Canadian audiences and try to [00:05:00] build those audiences globally to bring money back home.

Multinationals sell artists in Canada to take money out. And they invest in Canada too. And I, I wanna make that clear and have had some incredible success with incredible Canadian artists. That is not to diminish any of that at all, but we just need to be clear that there are two different things.

Like, there's two different jobs going on here and the realities of them are different. And the Canadian owned music sector. is fighting on a very unbalanced playing field, and Seima strives to help balance that a bit more. Grew some of these regulatory means like factor music, axion, star, maker other regulatory measures that we're now seeing as a result of Bill C11.

Rosalyn: Yeah, I was gonna wait until we warmed up a bit to bring in Bill C11, but this seems like a good time. CMA has been such a strong advocate for the Canadian independent music sector. And whenever there are these policy [00:06:00] reforms, CIMA is always at the very forefront of, making sure that folks are aware of any sort of reform and changes that are going on.

Right now we have Bill C11 on the table, which is an act to amend the broadcasting act. There's a lot at stake I think in this bill. I've seen, you know, just on Instagram and social media a certain ad by a prominent Canadian major label signee who has advocated really kind of against CanCon.

Can you explain a little bit about what's at stake here with, with C11 what CIMA is, specifically advocating for.

Andrew: Well, if we look at the music ecosystem today, tech platforms Dominate the business now they're not music companies. They're, tech companies and Canadian consumers, Canadian music levers have been opened up to an incredible world of access to music.

I don't know if people are too aware. I know I [00:07:00] certainly wasn't at first like these companies, which by the way are some of the largest, most profitable and most powerful companies in the history of the world. And they don't pay income tax in Canada for the revenues that they receive.

Bring in Canada. And I would say likely that's the scenario in most countries of the world. but even beyond that and perhaps more importantly than that is that I believe, and I could be wrong, but I believe there's no other for-profit or not for-profit entity in Canada that Does not work within a regulatory framework that they have to adhere to in order to be allowed to do business in Canada. and so while, while C 11 does a lot of different things and is by the way, primarily focused on the audio visual sector, so essentially film and television, that's really where the bulk of the build is focused on that.

But for the purposes of trying to [00:08:00] bring our platform partners within the regulatory framework that we all have to work, including terrestrial radio broadcasters. As well as a satellite that's c eleven's purpose ultimately. And, we can talk about the profit margin at Spotify and, we are talking about that stuff and that, and that is important, But more broadly speaking, there's a real question here about, the democratic institutions of Canada and our ability to through our democratically elected governments. Set the terms for business in Canada for everyone and, including these, these platforms. We spoke earlier about foreign owned multinational record labels. They're here, but they adhere to Canadian regulatory rules and always have, and have actually done quite well within them. This represents a number of issues that are much broader and bigger and, and more serious [00:09:00] than the Canadian music industry itself.

Rosalyn: And are there Canadians working in the music industry that are presenting a different argument,

Andrew: Well, I mean, there's many different arguments out there. unfortunately out of the gate. This issue was marred in all sorts of misinformation and was used as a way of fundraising in the political realm based on that misinformation. and that really muddied the waters.

And in those muddy waters enters the tech platforms. And you know, I think it's not an, it's obviously you know, not an original thought right now to say we're in an era of misinformation. and that's kind of what is happening here with C 11. Like, you know, it isn't a perfect thing.

but the principle behind it I support because it is about how we as a society decide what kind of cultural policy objectives we wanna pursue. and once we decide what they are, [00:10:00] how do we do that?

How do we do it? Well, we've decided in the past, you know, we're gonna, compel private radio stations to play. 35% Canadian music, and that hasn't worked perfectly at all. There's no question about that, but it's undeniable that it has worked. There's lots of problems with it, but it has worked. The investment factor has worked. We literally have a thriving music industry, a domestic music industry in Canada. we have music companies now that are strong and have offices. outside of Canada as well and have real success but we're in a shift. And the idea that Spotify and YouTube and Apple and, you know, all the other ones should contribute some amount directly into what we already know. Is working. I think that's fair.

Of course I'm not Daniel Eck and, you know, I understand [00:11:00] like this is business and everyone's gonna try to get the best deal they can get. That's fine. And I accept that, and I think everyone does from, the government of Canada to the CRTC all the way down. I accept that we're gonna all fight for as good a deal as possible.

That is one thing, but. To go out and misrepresent this as a tax, for example, is just, well, it's misrepresentation, it's disingenuous to go out on a campaign as, the association that represents these massive corporations has without fully disclosing to the Canadian public that the people that are footing the bill for this campaign are Spotify and.

The other ones is the Disingenuous view. And so like, let's have the debate and the battle inside the regulatory arena. Just like we had the battle inside the political arena about C 11. And we fought that fight, all of us for three years. The government passed it.

They modified it, they [00:12:00] changed it. They listened to a lot of people. From all sides. And no one got everything they wanted. And consequently, pretty well, all of us are unhappy with the bill in some way, shape, or form, So I accept and welcome that sort of Policy work with platforms, with our international partners, with the government, with the regulator. but I think you know, misinformation and disingenuous campaigns are unfortunate and don't help, they don't help our sector.

Rosalyn: I wanted to get into a bit about the political climate that we're currently finding ourselves in. And you know, I say this with the idea that by the time this airs, we could be facing a whole different situation. Who knows? At this point? for the Canadian independent music sector. Both recorded live. what is this moment when we're, when we're looking at. Tariffs when we're looking at, really intensely strict immigration policies as well as, the [00:13:00] endangerment of, our citizens and our, our music industry workers that they might be facing in the, in the us. What does this mean for the Canadian independent music industry at this moment?

Andrew: Well, we don't know. is the answer. we do not know. Oh, I suppose if I look at this from just a purely business perspective, you know, the US is our biggest market. and We don't know whether that market is going to be as available or we don't know if it's gonna make as much sense as it once did. We're in a kind of a holding pattern until we understand that.

Rosalyn: Is there a silver lining for Canadian independent artists and music industry workers that we can see gaining opportunities within Canada? Do you see a possible scenario where, Canadian artists and, music companies can benefit from like a bi Canadian mentality?

Andrew: So first of all, I don't know whether opportunities are [00:14:00] limited. Now. I wouldn't say that they are, it's unclear whether any of those tariffs are going to directly affect the music sector. That's very unclear right now. And it would be hard to kind of understand other than for physical goods. How it would affect us, right? So we have to be, careful here that, this may not necessarily affect us directly. However, we need a stable context to, to, you know, that we're, if we're investing in a market, you wanna know that it's stable.

You wanna know that it's predictable. You wanna know what you're getting into. you wanna be clear on the rules. And you wanna make sure that it's safe. And those issues are starting to be questioned. Because we see that, internally a lot of rules are changing. We're seeing trade agreements that are being, you know, sort of at least rhetorically, abrogated. So I think that in those ways, things might affect some parts of our music [00:15:00] industry.

Having said that, I believe that we could do much more work in Canada, but we're a country of 40 million people. Spread out across a continent, a thin band sparsely populated. It's not really set up for the music industry, for a critical mass and for a thriving sector. We need to find other markets, other trade routes and we are.

Really no different than most other sectors of the Canadian economy. And why would we be that the biggest market is there? The biggest consumer market in the world is there. So it makes sense that we oriented our businesses there and what we don't know right now is whether that can continue.

And if it does continue, does it make sense to continue or, does it continue at a reduced rate? We don't really know any of that yet. So I would say, on this date, February 26th, which is when we're talking [00:16:00] people shouldn't change their plans to perform in the US .

Rosalyn: You know, I know that there was recently in the news, you guys got some big press from this. For some reason, people got all infested because CIMA decided to pull out of Canada House at South by this year. What were some of the motivations behind that decision and, and is that kind of keeping in line with, with what we're talking about here?

Andrew: Well, as you can imagine, that was a pretty hard decision to make. And there was a number of factors that forced our hand to make the decision when we made it. So, you know, I, I had just talked about how you need to know that The context that you're investing in is going to have a level of predictability, stability, safety you wanna be as confident as it can be that it, going to be worthwhile, right?

so those things are there and they're there always. And up till now the assessment has been, yeah, all those things, all those boxes are ticked, you know, I think we can do it. And, and, you know, [00:17:00] CIMA as a not-for-profit dollar is super tight and this is our biggest spend of the year.

This is the biggest lift of the year. So in there, we also have other unknowns, right? We don't, you know, at this point, or at least before we made the decision, now we pretty well know this is going to happen. We didn't know if tariffs were going to come into effect, and not that they would directly affect us, but they may affect the climate that we.

Find yourselves in on March 12th. Right? Which is when Canada House, I believe was supposed to be. So we don't know that. We don't know what kind of government reaction we're going to get in Ontario But I suspect. Given the existential threat to the auto sector that these tariffs represent the response from the Ontario government's gonna be as they say robust, right? We don't know how that's gonna affect anything. We don't know how that's gonna affect cross border business. We just don't know.

We're gonna get a new Prime Minister of [00:18:00] Canada a few days before. Our Canada House event, we don't know what the announcement is going to be with the new Prime Minister. We know that they're working through all of this right now, so we don't know anything about that, and we don't know what those decisions are gonna be. We could confidently put our stamp of approval on this entire process this year; we just didn't feel like we could do it. And we'll divert those funds to other things right now. and hopefully everything that I'm saying I'm wrong about. and then we can go back next year and that'll be awesome. But I wasn't prepared to take that chance this year based on an unprecedented turn of events that no one I think contemplated. So that's why.

Rosalyn: Yeah, it wasn't on our bingo cards as, they say.

Andrew: well, one other little point is that all the artists that, play at SXSW, at Canada House as a, precondition to being able to play at Canada House, they already have to have a official showcase at South by, so all the artists that are [00:19:00] going to South by have at least one performance already.

Rosalyn: So it's not like they're losing out on the experience in general.

Andrew: That's right there's one opportunity that they won't have to perform. But that's one of, hopefully for most artists, that's one of several.

Rosalyn: yeah. You know, we're talking a lot about unknowns and, when you were just talking about, the state that, the artists that both you and, and, and our organization are working with, these are, some of our most vulnerable workers in this industry. I'm wondering if we can, lift it up a little bit, pick it up a bit and, most of the folks who are listening to the show are artists and independent music workers. You know, can we give some encouragement and, is there something to look forward to?

Is there something that we can do? Is there a call to action for the music workers of Canada that we can get involved in and maybe even just feel some agency over the times we're living in?

Andrew: I think the sort of way in which Canadians are generally reacting to sort of the baiting that's happening [00:20:00] right now is to look around and realize that we actually, I. Have a pretty amazing country here, and I think like music and musicians play a really big part in that.

But it's true that some of the most important things about a culture and a society are undervalued. monetarily and structurally. And you think about public school teachers and nurses as just two examples, right? But you could think about artists, too. Musicians, musicians you know, have to spend.

Countless hours. Learning how to just play some tunes and to be able to get up there and, perform countless unpaid hours, countless hours of discipline and focus. And we do need music. We know that, it's really an important way that we communicate to each other.

and so what I, I guess what I would [00:21:00] say is we do need to keep doing those things And I, I would encourage people to look at what they do within the context of the broader society and see themselves as, a really important member of that, of their communities and that the work they're doing is, is vital.

It's different, albeit, but it is vital and, that, that's hard to know sometimes or believe in because of the difficult ways in which people have to navigate their lives in order to be able to do it. so I, I would encourage people to just do what they're doing and also think about how they make a living to keep a roof over their heads and to have a stable life might not be directly from their music. And that doesn't mean that they're not pursuing successful music careers.

But it's important to kind of be healthy. And stable and I think that our industry needs to champion that for the people that [00:22:00] work in it. First and foremost, the musicians themselves.

Rosalyn: Great. keeping it positive and to keep going in that direction. There's some big celebrations coming up. As we mentioned, it's CIMA’S 50th year in this world. And lots of cool things that you guys are up to this year. I think the first time we're gonna get to celebrate Sima's 50th is at the Juno’s coming up, correct.

Andrew: That's right. Yeah. We will do an event on the Saturday night the night before the broadcast. And it really is, a, a celebration of the Canadian owned music sector. so, so companies and artists and music industry workers who are really taking on the risks of building Canadian culture and nurturing artists, nurturing.

Businesses. there'll be some really interesting artists performing and it's mostly just a way for people to come together [00:23:00] and.

There's not necessarily a specific event in the calendar that really, just sort of plants the flag for a Canadian owned independent music. This is an attempt to do that at least once a year.

Rosalyn: Yeah. It's the, in my opinion. Best party of the Junos. such a great celebration, truly of the independent sector. And there's always just fantastic programming and, and artists that are, performing there. and I also wanted to bring up that you guys are going to make it music again, can you tell folks a little bit about that?

Andrew: This will be our third annual Make It Music Conference, which is gonna take place in November this year. And we wanted to find a way to really focus a couple days of learning just specifically on the Canadian owned sector of the music industry. But the focus of ours is specifically the Canadian owned sector. and it is also specifically about how we look at [00:24:00] the future of this industry, how we prepare for it, what are the factors that we need to understand to build successful music businesses and have success as artists

Rosalyn: It's definitely one of the most future thinking conferences and you bring together a lot of thought leaders. In the industry. There's a lot of what I would say, like thought experimentation and, and encouragement to, kind of future proof people's music businesses.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. we Did really look at the conferences that were out there and, you know, the first thing is that there's no point in doing what other people are doing how can we sort of compliment some of the work that's being done out there already and I feel like we've hit a good one, a good spot. And like I said, this is, we're still really early in the stage. It's just gonna be a third one. We learned so much after doing the first one, and then we learned so much after the second. And yeah, I'm really excited about it.

And I don't have much more to say about it other than that.

Rosalyn: [00:25:00] certainly I would encourage folks to check it out and, and just check out what SMA is doing year round. There's tons of learning opportunities throughout the year that you guys do. Tons of export opportunities. you guys are leading the charge in terms of export programming. And it's always been real, top shelf, missions that you go on. So, yeah, if folks want to get involved, we'll, we'll put the, we'll put the links and the,

Andrew: Yeah, if, if I could just make a little plug for membership in CMA as well, and it brings with it a bunch of Networking opportunities, but it also brings some, specific benefits, one of which is a mental health benefit of about 10 half hour sessions of therapy via Zoom with a, with a therapist which it also includes coverage for your dependents. There's also help with legal issues and fitness and diet issues. These are all wrapped up in this one benefit that you get with [00:26:00] membership of I think it's $150. It's the cost of the membership, the one year membership. You also get a one year free subscription to chart metric, which is I think, really super helpful for artists.

And it allows them to kind of get a real sense of where their music is being listened to, how it's being listened to, what sort of ways in which they can, you know, see their career in real time as it is unfolding across a bunch of different digital platforms.

Rosalyn: Fantastic. And we'll put a link to membership. Highly recommend that folks go and, and check it out. There's an incredible suite of benefits that come along with your CIMA membership and, on top of it all, you get to be part of an organization that's doing so much good for our industry.

So, thank you so much for what you do. Andrew, it's been such a pleasure to get to chat with you today.

Andrew: You too. Thank you.
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