Demystifying Sync & Licensing with Michelle Allman-Esdaille

RFU53 - Michelle Allman-Esdaille
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[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to season four of Refolkus. Our guest today is Michelle Allman-Esdaille. Michelle Allman-Esdaille is transforming the creative industry through her brainchild, the hook and company, a Toronto based online marketplace offering work for hire artists services by industry experts across Canada and the US as an accomplished artist, manager, mentor, and business owner. Michelle is renowned for her influence, including being the pioneering force behind the hook sync group, Canada's premier sync agency held by a black woman, championing [00:01:00] diversity and inclusivity.

Rosalyn: As an activist within the Black community, Michelle has spent time working with ADVANCE, Canada's Black music business collective, where she drove operations and talent acquisition, actively fostering growth in the Black music scene. Her commitment extends to sustainable creative living, a platform where she leverages her decade long experience to empower career ready artists and industry professionals through various courses and experiential programming. To add to the list, Michelle is a Reiki practitioner and author of a collaborative anthology book entitled, You Have So Much Potential, inspiring generation healing and transformation with 29 other doctors and practitioners showcasing her multifaceted commitment to empowering others, making her a true pioneer in the industry.

Welcome to Refolkus, Michelle. How are you doing?

Michelle: Thank you for having me, Rosalyn. I'm doing well.

Rosalyn: Well, I'm so excited that you're here. This is the first Refolkus episode that we've had that talks [00:02:00] about sync and licensing. So before we get into it, for the folks tuning in that might be unfamiliar with some of the language we are using, I'm wondering if we can start by demystifying the words sync and licensing. Can you describe for folks what this means?

Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great place to start. Sync is really short for the whole entire word, synchronization. The whole purpose of sync music is to synchronize music, whether that be instrumentals or lyrical songs against visual mediums. And so that could range between TV, film, games, commercials, any which way that music is used to apply against a visual medium or synchronize it accordingly.

Rosalyn: Can you explain a bit about the licensing part of it?

Michelle: Absolutely. So all the bodies of music that are synchronized or utilized from, already pre recorded music. That way by artists or songwriters or producers, they need to [00:03:00] be licensed in order to use that body of music on these visual mediums. They can't just apply it to their storytelling, they need permission because it is owned by these individuals or the originators of the music, or the copyright holders are really the words I should be using.

So they will license a portion of the music based on how they're going to use it for the visual medium.

Rosalyn: Great. So you can't just decide I'm making a movie, I'll put in whatever I want to ask for forgiveness later. There's a process beforehand.

Michelle: I'm wondering if you can explain. when we're talking about a music supervisor, what it is that a music supervisor does. I love this conversation because I get mixed up as a music supervisor. I am a sync agent. A music supervisor is the one that works closely with film directors or production spaces to, Basically acquired the music and licensed the music that they are looking to [00:04:00] use in any of their given projects, or at least are trusted to create the audio mood.

For the visual medium that they're working on. And so that is their role. Their role is to receive the music, to say, okay, we're going to use it, cue it up. We're going to use 30 seconds. It's going to be placed in this space and then get it licensed accordingly based on how it's going to be used.

Rosalyn: Okay. And then as the sync agent, then what is your role in this equation?

Michelle: I am the bridge. That's what I call myself. I basically am the person, the go between, the artist, the songwriter, the composer, the producer, the arranger. And, I get that music that they've created over to the music supervisor for the project.

Rosalyn: And is it a part of that as well? Do you have a roster? Do you pitch artists to music supervisors?

Michelle: Yes, I do have a roster, but I also work with. artists freelance, if you want to call it that way. Sometimes I just hear some really [00:05:00] great music or they will actually just send me some really great music. And based on the briefs that I get, if it works, then I will put that playlist together and send it over.

That's when I'm working specifically with the brief. I also will pitch the artist. So when introducing a music supervisor to, maybe a body of work, whether that be a few songs or maybe their most newly released album. Maybe this is a great way to introduce them to what that artist is doing. And so I will go ahead and do that as well.

Rosalyn: I wonder if you can take us through the process of getting a song license. So, you know, maybe we can, do like an example or a case study of what might happen, throughout that process. Let's look at it possibly from the artist perspective, working with a sync agent and a music supervisor.

Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it always starts with getting the music in the right hands. So once the music is in the hands of the music supervisor and they say, Oh, you know what? I really like this and I think this would be [00:06:00] a great fit for this particular project. The artist or agent will receive what is called a demo quote.

And that basically is for them to say, This is how we want to use it. And this would include various considerations like the term. So how long is this music going to be used for? And I say this because if it's commercials, you'll normally see something like around 13 weeks. They run in 13 weeks. If it's a film.

You'll see something probably more along the lines of perpetuity, then it's geography, like where is it actually going to be shown? Is it just in North America? Is it worldwide? And then of course where specifically it'll be featured. Is it on terrestrial TV? online? just theaters?

Like where specifically will this show up? Sometimes it's in all the places. And then of course maybe even considerations, well, you'll see the consideration around the fee that they'll license it for, terms like all in, all in means [00:07:00] both the master and the publishing and the songwriter side. those are pretty much the majority of the considerations you'll see, and that right there is your identifier about, yes, I feel comfortable in this music based on what they said, or how they're going to use it. Sure. I'll sign off. Or is there a little bit of negotiating room?

And that's pretty much your first stage. If you want to negotiate when you're receiving that demo, from there, if they say, okay, we've locked in the picture. Now we've gotten to the post production side. We do say, you know what? That music is going to land. We definitely want it. Then comes the paperwork. This is where you're going to get a master license as well as a sync license. And so the master license is obviously signed by the owner, the master owner of the song. The sync license is usually the, also the master owner in most cases, if you're dealing with a one stop or whoever owns the master, it could be the label, etc. whoever else is. And so those [00:08:00] licenses go out, once they are received, then whatever they choose to do with it, that was agreed upon at the time of signing when you received your demo, that's how they'll use it. And that pretty much almost takes care of most of the licensing. It's relatively an easy process to be quite frank with you. It's quick. I will say that a lot of things happen very quickly, sometimes as quick as 24 hours. they say, stay ready when you're in the sync space because you'll literally send in the music, they'll like it, you'll receive that demo. The next day they want, they want to send out the licenses to you.

Rosalyn: Wow. So how can an artist then prepare their music to be licensed? Is there anything that artists can put in place to make it a bit more appealing to a music supervisor or a sync agent, to be able to pitch their music. And you mentioned the word one stop shop. What does that mean in regards to folks catalog?

Michelle: Majority of my [00:09:00] roster is, or my house, my agency is a one stop facilitation of music that I want to like get licensed and because it's quick, it's easy, it's efficient for the music supervisor. It's great for myself. It's also really great for independent music artists as a one stop artist. You basically are the master owner of The body of work. You are the publisher. You're not represented by a publisher. You're not represented by a label. You're the only person basically representing that body of music. So you're the only stop, which I think is great. and that's what makes it quick. It's less work for the music supervisor to be quite frank with you.

and so in terms of preparation, you're You always want to ensure that if it's a lyrical song, you have the instrumental. You also have a clean version. You also want to make sure you have your stems prepped and ready to go. If there is anybody else that contributed to the song, you want to make sure that you have all your splits. Prepare because in a lot of cases, you may need to know that information or [00:10:00] will need to know that information when they get their cue sheet ready. So what are the splits in terms of the songwriting? What are the splits in terms of any publishing and what are the splits in terms of any ownerships? And those are the three areas that you want to really highlight, not just what you put on SoCan, because that is maybe what you've done from the songwriting perspective, but it doesn't speak to the master ownership or the publishing side of things. That's a great starting point.

Clean version, instrumental, lyrical version, all your stems and all your splits prepped and ready to.

Rosalyn: And when you say clean, I'm assuming you mean like without swear words? Is that the, yeah.

Michelle: Yeah. Radio version. I'll get another way to say it. Yeah.

Rosalyn: Great. So I'm wondering if you can share with us an example from your own career you know, a success story, getting placed in a film or television commercial.

Michelle: Oh, wow. I love success stories. This is a really good one, [00:11:00] actually. I think it's a great example of a way to have a conversation as well as honor your music, because I do take great liberty at realizing I am representing the copyright owner.

And so I always want to make sure their music is being used appropriately. I act like a real estate agent. I never say yes. to the deal. I always go back to the seller and make sure that they're comfortable with it. And so in this particular case, we were asked by a city to create a song that they wanted exclusively, which means they would own it.

Non-exclusive is where they'll just use it, but you have the right to still shop and do whatever you want with it, just for explanation sake. So in this case, they wanted an exclusive song specific to a national commercial that they wanted to feature, specifically for their tourism. and these considerations are very important. When they sent me over the details, the licensing fee they wanted for [00:12:00] the song. It was all right. It wasn't great, specifically considering the work that would have to go into the creation of the song and the fact that they wanted to use it exclusively, and it's for termism. And so we went back to the table and said I think there's a little room here that we need to explore around the licensing fee to use this song the way you want to use it and have this individual, this amazing, talented individual create the song specifically for you.

And we kind of went back and forth a little bit because, you know, they were trying to say, this is our budget. This is all that there is. And I get it. I'm not one to push to the point where we lose it, but there's got to be other considerations. And so I asked them, how long would this be for?

Because you do understand, in terms of tourism, you're going to be acquiring millions of dollars. by way of this commercial that you're going to be showcasing nationally. And so how long do you want this to run for? And they said that they wanted to run [00:13:00] for this, this particular, like they gave us the length of term, but they said they wanted different versions for different seasons.

And so I said, Oh, well then how about this? We'll take the deal. We'll take the amount after, of course, I spoke with the artists. We'll take the amount, but lock the artists in for the three to five years that you want to run this. for the different seasons and have them create the different versions that you require.

And so they said, and so now don't, yes, we didn't get the full amount for that one license, but they are now employed with that particular city over the next three years to create the various versions for several different commercial opportunities. And so that budget can be tinkered with now that they go, they're going into a new season. So I thought that was a great success story.

Rosalyn: That's fantastic.

Michelle: A way to negotiate and own the value of what it is that you're doing because there's time, there's studio, there's engineering, you know, there's, there's a lot of [00:14:00] things that the artist has to think about, the upfront costs to the back end. And so let's make it all make sense as well as have respect for the copyright and hold value for the artist that's doing it.

Rosalyn: Thank you. I'm wondering if you can let us know a little bit about your personal journey, to creating the hooking company. a little bit what interested you in this type of work.

Michelle: Oh, yeah. Wow. So I come from a background nowhere close to this at all, which is really crazy that I'm here. I have worked in corporate for about 27 years prior to being here. I worked with large public corporate accounts. I work with reconciliation of assets and national sales teams. So I was kind of a middleman between rolling in new equipment and rolling out old equipment in terms of their assets. I had two sides to the fence that I had to make happy all the time. So I gotta say, I am actually a [00:15:00] lover of sales, which is super strange. I don't know too many people that are like, I love sales. Not a lot of people say that, but I really did. And I, I understood the art of building relationships and trust and trying to figure out ways to compromise, meet in the middle, but yet hit that margin.

The art of business is just very phenomenal to me. I absolutely love it. However, as good as I was at it, because I was doing extremely well. I was working with national teams, like I said, right across the country with major corporations. And it just doesn't feel fulfilling. It was something I could do and do well and get the accolades, but there was a hole like in my heart, if you will. And I had a great admiration for people that I know or I knew. that were just doing what they loved. There was a purpose driven attention to what it is that they did versus just being able to do the thing. And I kind of started to crave for that. My kids at the time had just turned [00:16:00] 18, 20. They were doing their own thing.

I was kind of feeling a little empty nesting. And so I just said to myself, maybe now's the time to figure out what you, Michelle, want to do. What is purpose driven for you? And in having that conversation with myself, a lot of my friends are creatives in the music space. And as a person that wasn't in the music space and just hung out with them, you kind of always hear what the drama is. And so I could hear all the things that artists needed or would like, or were struggling with. And I figured I want to fill that gap because I want to serve those that are purpose driven. I see the need. And that's where I created the hook because I really wanted to hook people up.

It was just as simple as that. And it started as a referral company specifically for musicians and music artists. I just, I ran hard in the paint. Like thank God for the skills that I had from corporate in terms of shaking hands, building [00:17:00] relationships and finding needs and, understanding what that looked like from a marginal, even perspective, I was able to really generate a lot of Resources and tools right across Canada, a little bit in the US. And then I started to dip in Europe, which really caught me off guard when people from Europe, varying European countries would say, Hey, do you know anybody that well, yeah, actually I do. And it really started to grow. That was great. And that dove me down a very deep rabbit hole because I'm like, okay, so I'm facilitating these artists, and I'm understanding their needs to a point, but how does the business really operate? Like, I'm just doing this kind of surface level. I still don't understand the business. And so I dove down that. rabbit hole hard. I took an artist management course with CMI, which was fantastic. I just started picking and prodding. I think this industry is amazing in terms of leveraging its resources and experts.

And so I just. Ask questions and put up my hand a lot and [00:18:00] volunteered, even if I had to, whatever would allow me to learn as quickly as possible, and it just got me closer and closer to artists to the point where I ended up admitting a 21 day tour to Europe with nine countries, 13 cities with six artists.

And as soon as I got back. hit. And so I had all these amazing plans. I was ready to do all the things and could do nothing. I hate problems not to the point where I don't like problems. I love problems because I think they define you, but I don't like discussing them for too long. We already realize what the problem is.

Let's figure out the solution now. And so like everybody else sitting on my couch with my big bag of Lay's chips, watching TV, I'm sitting there like, what can I do? What can I do? What can I do? And I'll never forget it. I was watching a movie by my favorite film director, Guy Ritchie, and he just has this really cool [00:19:00] way of incorporating music in his films and, and stuff, and I'm just like, this song came on and just hit my heart.

And I was like, I know what I can do. I know what I can do, but I don't know how to do it.

Michelle: So you know, nobody's doing anything anyways. It's COVID, so out came all the zoom calls and the phone calls and the. inquiries around this is what I want to do. I want to create a sync agency. I noticed film production specifically in Canada is not dying because of COVID.

It kind of hit in the U. S. Music was at a complete standstill. This is how I know I can support. What does this look like? And quite frankly, Rosalind, I already knew some capacity to always get here. I love the way music connects and speaks with storytelling. I love it. I've always have, so, you know, it's just timing, I think was just super perfect and had a way to make sure that I got to where I needed to be, if you will, and [00:20:00] in November, 2020, I launched my, sync agency, the hook sync group, and that's how I got there.

A little personal journey right there.

Rosalyn: Wow. Well, that's an inspiring story and it seems like the timing was right, but also kudos to your bravery for choosing a different path, one that was a little bit off the beaten trail and taking that risk. And, artists and the industry are all, we're better for it to have you with us here. So, you know, we appreciate that. And I tip my hat to you

Michelle: I appreciate that. Thank you. It's a cool place to be, man. I got to admit it really is.

Rosalyn: Yeah, I wanted to you know, just briefly, cause you're mentioning that the way that, you know, your company runs, artists can approach you and like kind of pitch to you to work with them. Can you explain a little bit about how that relationship works now and some of your different deals or relationships that you'll have now with artists?

Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. I really love the ground level. I really love where artists are. I love their journey. I love their design. I [00:21:00] think they're extremely special and required on this planet in terms of creating a product that allows us to feel the way we can with the use of music. It gives us permission to say the things that we choose not to, or don't want to. And so I will always be of service in that area. First and foremost, been a mentor for women in music in that regard. I'm part of the jumpstart program for music BC in terms of consultations, any which way I can connect with artists and support their development. I'm always here. So in saying that, My sync agency doesn't specifically represent a particular genre of music. I get asked that a lot. I represent BIPOC LGBTQ and recognized as female communities. And I think that's important because I want to be a voice for them and help open up that space. This space is specifically for them. This space has only opened up as much as it has probably since 2020, And so it's still very fresh and new.

A lot of individuals in these communities [00:22:00] understand that sync exists, have no idea what that looks like. They don't understand the intricacies or the considerations of this space, which is why I need to be on the ground level to support that development. In being in this space now and representing those individuals and quite frankly, it kind of started by getting some of the music that they thought was good for a particular brief.

When I send it out and realizing, did you read the brief? There's a little struggle there. I said, you know what, they don't know what they don't know. And so it took me 18 months with a co partner by the name of. Sosa survey, but I crafted a four week long accelerator that has started 2023 was my first one where I taught music producers specifically how to make music for television, film, commercials, and games.

And brought in over 20 industry facilitators, instructors, and speakers from both the film and the music industry to help collaborate on this kind of [00:23:00] development, we just finished our second year accelerator in, I guess, mid December, this allows us to get really close and connected with artists, our producers or composers, songwriters, anybody in the music creation space to really help them understand The considerations in all the different visual mediums, because they do vary for starters, we just definitely discussed the business that stays the same. That's pretty much the line in the sand, but as creators, where is your heart sitting? Summer and commercials. Interestingly enough, this last cohort, I had a producer say, you know, he was really gunning for the film side, but after having the weekend with the video game developer and crafting music for games, he's like, I think I really want to get into gaming.

It's different. And so I love that because that's an expansion of your own skill set and scaling your business accordingly, right? And there's a lot, this is a very lucrative space, a lot of opportunity. If you can understand it and [00:24:00] speak the language, you're better off for it. And so this is why I encourage artists to connect with me.

A lot of them just actually just send me email and say, I just have questions. And they don't even offer the music at times, which is quite shocking. Like you'd think that'd be like, okay, so now can I send you music? Sometimes they don't, they just want to understand the business so they can figure it out for themselves. And I applaud them for that. But when it comes to listening to the music and helping them understand the difference between what makes a really good song for an album or for an artist versus what makes a really good song for television and film. I'm here all day.

Rosalyn: Okay. Well, this is actually a great segue because we have some listener questions. We put it out to our followers on Instagram. I'll let them know that you're coming into the studio and we have a few questions that I'd love to share with you that I think speak to the, some of the things that you're saying here.

The first one is from our friend @JumpingJoelFlash. Do you recommend that artists [00:25:00] write songs specifically for sync? And if so, what are some of the things to keep in mind when doing that?

Michelle: Right. It can go either way. I think there's something beautifully authentic that comes out of music that lands for sync when you're just writing, doing music that you love as an artist. I think the truth of who you are speaks by way of that. There are some technical aspects around that consideration when you're doing it in terms of understanding diegetic.

Because. If you're crafting for a film or let's say even a commercial, there's a story happening. And so you have to be considerate of how your lyrics will clash with the diegetic that's going on in the foreground, your music's in the background. So things to think of like that, but still staying you crafting it specifically for sync.

It really, in my personal opinion, and based on what I've seen, it really depends on how deep you want to go. I'm going to say it that way. Some people are really ready to say, [00:26:00] I really just want to do this, still want to create albums for themselves, but really want to do this. I would then almost implore you to say, you might want to create a catalog that is more geared to the sync side of things, depending on where you want to land.

Every different kind of visual medium has its sound. When I say visual medium, I mean, Drama has its sound. Thriller has its sound. Sci-fi has its sound, right? And documentaries have a conversation happening as well. Reality TV has a sound. And so if you can identify the music you love to create with one of these visual mediums, you've hit both targets at the same time.

If you feel like you want to explore and your ability of creating music without impacting your brand and kind of confusing your audience, then yeah, maybe you might want to have something that's a little bit more off the side. So that way you can fulfill your heart's desire in terms of the music you want to create without it impacting, you know, that side of the fence. [00:27:00]

Rosalyn: Great advice. I'm going to read you the next question now. This comes from our friend at Madison Music. Hey Madison, how long does it normally take after a soup hears your music to get it placed somewhere?

Michelle: Now, if they want it, ASAP. They'll pretty much hit you up right away. They have some serious tight deadlines. It is rare that I get a brief where I have over 24 hours to give them the music. So clearly, you know, everything is running very quickly. If you do not hear from them within 24, 48 hours tops, it doesn't necessarily mean they don't like the music or they can't use it though. They are constantly working on a variety of projects. So based on the scene that they're asking for or a project they're working on, your song might really be amazing, but it doesn't hit what they're working on. So what they'll do, and this is where, I can get into the details around how to meditate your songs properly et cetera, but without going there too deep, they're [00:28:00] going to keep the song in their library.

And so, that way, when they are working on a project that is probably a little bit more geared to the song that you sent, then they can pull it out of that library and say, Hey, we've got the song. We'd love to license it. This is how we want to use it.

Rosalyn: Okay. Our last question here comes from Kristalina music. Is there a website that locates all of the sync license contracts available?

Michelle: Is there a place where you can find briefs? Like, are there folks that are pitching or putting out a brief saying, Hey, we're looking for. For this kind of music. And does that exist on a website or a hub anywhere that can be found online?

Yeah, for sure. There are so many different sync companies rising up that either will, and for a fee, probably in terms of membership, allow you to kind of review their briefs that they have built relationships around and that they receive. I think those are great resources. Do realize you're kind of, it's a little bit higher in [00:29:00] competition because there's a lot of people kind of advocating for those briefs by way of their music.

But yeah, absolutely. I think Versa is one that you want to keep in the back of your mind. There's Morrison Young. Taxi used to be the one. It's really huge. It's super competitive now. So, but not to say they're not accepting. There's so many different libraries as well, where you can just pretty much apply your music to these libraries and they won't source the briefs per se, but they will pull your song for brief opportunities or placement opportunities. My only thing around libraries is just make sure that you're comfortable with the terms and conditions. And they do vary between the sync fee, what, what percentage they're going to take it from the upfront license. And then of course the publishing in terms of the backend, some take some don't.

Rosalyn: And if you're tuning in right now and wondering how to submit your questions, please follow at @folk_canada on [00:30:00] Instagram, where we'll be posting our upcoming guests, all of whom are looking forward to telling you their deepest, darkest secrets and spilling the tea of their trade. So, please follow us online and we hope to hear your questions coming in. Michelle, before we wrap up, do you have any upcoming projects you'd like to share with us or let us know some ways that folks can connect with you online?

Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. I'll do all of the above, actually. We are very excited this year to launch a series of courses that we are going to be facilitating across Toronto and some online. So we can make sure that we cover a larger base in various areas around sync. So, sync in terms of music production for TV video games, cinematic composition, songwriting for sync.

Those are some of them that we're going to be showcasing. So I implore you to take a look at our website soon cause we'll be listing out those courses and some of the dates and locations that will be there. If this is something that you're really trying to learn and advocate for yourself and kind of scale [00:31:00] out your business or diversify your business, con, Sitting, you guys are making residual components. Get in touch with us and submit to any of our courses and see how great you can be in regards to connecting with us, you can always reach out at sync hookups at gmail. com is our sync email specific or info at the hook and co. com. Our website is thehookandco.com.

Rosalyn: Fantastic. And we will link to all those in the show notes. So if you're wondering how to get in touch with Michelle today please go look in those notes and click the right links and you'll get hooked up right away.

Michelle: Love that.

Thank you so much, Michelle, for being here. It's been so great to have this conversation. I'm sure there are many [00:32:00] more to come and we just really appreciate you sharing your expertise with us.