Supporting Your Health Through Herbs with Sarah Jane Scouten

RFU38 Sarah Jane Scouten
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[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Refocus. Today, [00:00:30] our guest is Sarah Jane Scouten. Sarah Jane is a Canadian folk and Americana songwriter who weaves in British folk revival elements with a continuous thread leading back to her roots in bluegrass and old time music. After transformative four years training as an herbalist in Southwest Scotland, Sarah Jane has released her fifth album, Turn to Gold on Light Organ Records. Please welcome Sarah Jane. Hello, Sarah Jane. How are you doing?

[00:00:56] Sarah: I'm very well. How are you, Ros?

[00:00:57] Rosalyn: I'm doing well. And I'm so [00:01:00] glad to get to talk to you. Last time I saw you was at the Folk Music Ontario conference. 2023.

[00:01:05] Sarah: It was, and I probably didn't get a great opportunity to catch up with you because you were everywhere all at once.

[00:01:11] Rosalyn: I don't get to see everything when I'm there, but I did get to see your official showcase, which was magical. You were resplendent. Is that a word I can use there?

[00:01:20] Sarah: I'll take it.

[00:01:20] Rosalyn: It was just so wonderful and it's great to catch up with you here on the podcast. You have a new album. We'll talk about that in a second. But the first thing I [00:01:30] almost canceled the recording today, because if you are listening, my voice is not good today. I'm like battling this little, cold thing. So normally I would be like, Oh, it's not, good enough for the air, but But I kind of felt like since you are now officially an herbalist, that talking to you might be like some sort of virtual herbal tea, that might be the remedy for myself and maybe anybody else feeling a little under the weather this season.

[00:01:56] Sarah: I'm always happy to talk about herbs.

[00:01:58] Rosalyn: Great. so, one of [00:02:00] the things that I love is this kind of, maybe unlikely intersection with, herbalism and music. I know you've done some workshops and you talk about it a lot on your social media. What drew you to herbalism?

[00:02:14] Sarah: Because I grew up on a island off of the West coast of British Columbia. So like, obviously I was taking Echinacea before I was 10… just, alternative and complementary health. It's kind of just swirling around. So I guess I've always had an interest.

[00:02:29] Sarah: [00:02:30] But then as I got a bit older, I was just using a lot of, plants to help me, especially as a touring musician and the impacts of being a touring musician, whether it is on your, throat or your joints or your muscles or your gut or you name it. and kind of, famously or notoriously in my band, I would, always have herbs on the go, teas and tinctures and stuff.

[00:02:50] Sarah: and I'd buy different things. wherever we went, I got some chaparral tincture one time in Joshua tree. and my band started to pretend they weren't feeling [00:03:00] unwell. You know, when they were hung over, if they had a cold, they just, they just be like, no, I'm fine. Because otherwise I'd be like, look, can I give you some herbs?

[00:03:08] Sarah: And, yeah, I mean herbs don't always taste that good. Now I know a little bit more about how to make them taste good. Anyway, there was a lot of interest, and I went to a herbalist, a naturopath and a herbalist, in Roncesvalles one time, and he was just really encouraging. He helped me with some things that I thought were just kind of like, oh, that's my body, that's me aging, I'm never gonna be able to get rid of this, [00:03:30] and oops, actually, and turns out herbs to the rescue.

[00:03:32] Sarah: So, I was really interested, but I was on the road all the time and, my training program was a four year training program. So I didn't have the time to train as a medical herbalist, until COVID happened. And then I just sort of saw my chance and I applied and I got in and I was like, Oh, okay, here it's, it's, it's happening.

[00:03:50] Sarah: this is the branch of the parallel universe that I am on.

[00:03:53] Rosalyn: That's so neat. you don't have to go into too much medical detail but what's an example of something, that you maybe, like, [00:04:00] took for granted, as something that couldn't be helped with, with herbs?

[00:04:03] Sarah: I mean, I'll, I'll just tell you what the example was, is like, it's very common for women to have, a chronic urinary tract infections, and, you basically get on this kind of cycle of, taking, antibiotics, and, basically you get kind of like a buildup of scar tissue in the, bladder lining.

[00:04:19] Sarah: And, I went to the naturopath slash herbalist because he's a very good herbalist even though he is technically a naturopath. And I said, I just feel like it's irritated. And he's [00:04:30] like, well, maybe it is, you know, maybe it isn't, solved by dose after dose of, of antibiotics.

[00:04:35] Sarah: And he sent me home with some herbs and some changes, you know, to my diet and, said, great. come back in a month, let me know how you're doing, and it was like, the symptoms had completely cleared up. And there were things that I'd, you know, I'd been feeling kind of crappy for a few years.

[00:04:50] Rosalyn: And now, with the designation that you have after doing the four years of schooling. Are you that guy now?

[00:04:57] Sarah: no, I'm definitely not a naturopath. [00:05:00] Naturopathic doctors have a different form of training and it's really, really broad. they learn so many, so many different things. one of which is medicinal plants. And so I kind of like focusing on medicinal plants. But I thought that when I was going into, you know, herb school that was going to be a bit like Hogwarts, but it was actually way more medical, than it was herbal.

[00:05:20] Sarah: the herbs got to play with and learn about in the clinic, but most of the other time I was studying, honking medical textbooks, the same ones that are used, for [00:05:30] people going through medical school. So, I am now what's called a medical herbalist.

[00:05:33] Rosalyn: So can we just flood your DMs with like, I got this thing and this is wrong. What herbs do I take? Do you have a clinic? Do you have patients? Do you have clients?

[00:05:41] Sarah: Yeah, I have a clinic here, because I'm in Scotland right now, so I'm allowed to call them patients. So I take patients. If I were in Canada, they'd be called clients. and yeah, so people come to me and, and it's, I mean, I think they think that I'm just going to wave a magic wand and hand them, some tea, And it's gonna work,

[00:05:58] Rosalyn: You do have a wand, right?

[00:05:59] Sarah: I [00:06:00] do, yeah, it's made of elder,

[00:06:02] Rosalyn: Okay. Just making sure.

[00:06:03] Sarah: unicorn hair and core.

[00:06:05] Sarah: Like, I'm really not that witchy, actually, because I grew up on the West Coast, and sure, I was a pretty witchy kid. I was practicing seances with my friends at the age of nine. Bowen Island. Anyways, as far as herbalists go, I'm not that witchy. Maybe as far as folk singers go, I'm pretty witchy.

[00:06:23] Rosalyn: so let's, see if we can kind of go into some scenarios of what situations musicians might find themselves in [00:06:30] Maybe we can talk about some of the ways people might be able to incorporate some herbalism into their life.

[00:06:35] Rosalyn: Let's do the first and obvious one because of my vocal strain right now. and that's one that probably comes to most people's mind first is vocal strain and sore throat. And I'm sure as a singer, this is something that you've, you've had to deal with.

[00:06:47] Sarah: Big time.

[00:06:48] Rosalyn: Or going to a conference, you know, people who go to a lot of conferences..

[00:06:51] Sarah: Yeah, and the air conditioned air and you're probably consuming too much alcohol and so your mucus membranes are totally dried [00:07:00] out. you're a bit dehydrated. so, I mean with that I think part of it is prevention and behavior, like any vocal coach, we'll tell you is that you need to support your voice.

[00:07:09] Sarah: You need to, support your diaphragm, be speaking from lower down in your body, then just like up here in your chest, you know, relaxing the muscles around your larynx. and, things like warmups are. Fantastic. I was at this conference festival last weekend and I met this really cool doctor who has a company called Roadie [00:07:30] Medic and he was giving out these, bamboo straws, and encouraging people to blow into water.

[00:07:36] Sarah: Basically it just kind of trains your breath control. I mean, you could do the same thing by pursing your lips and breathing through your lips or even, like, kind of Putting your fingers up to your lips and creating like kind of a small aperture like that, just breathing through it. all sorts of things.

[00:07:49] Sarah: it's kind of an annoying thing about looking after your body because it sometimes means that you can't have as much fun. So like, Maybe you shouldn't smoke what you're smoking, and maybe [00:08:00] you shouldn't drink as much of what you're drinking. and then once you've been a very good musician, in terms of a well behaved musician, and not drinking and smoking and doing all the naughty things, not screaming at your friends from across the field, right?

[00:08:13] Sarah: That's actually usually where you, where you develop the, the vocal note, notes from. It's not from singing. It's from when your voice is exhausted and then you push it, that one extra thing. And then, oop, pop. There you go.

[00:08:24] Rosalyn: Yeah. Even just like speaking in, clubs, I think I have like folk ears anyway, so it's hard for me [00:08:30] to be in those loud environments, but so many environments I find just be so loud and so, just to have like a normal interaction, like at a merch table or, saying hello to somebody is like, screaming,

[00:08:39] Sarah: yeah, as far as that's concerned, you know, like speaking over people, you can do a lot of damage to your ears. I think that a half an hour of 90 decibel exposure can cause upper, range hearing loss. So yeah, I mean, we've all experienced it.

[00:08:54] Sarah: we've probably all got a wee bit of hearing loss. So people always want to know about the herbs first, but, the herbs [00:09:00] aren't going to work unless you look after your body and stop doing the things that are causing you harm in the first place. I mix up a really nice, beautiful, Lovely soothing tea as well.

[00:09:10] Sarah: It's like a little bit antimicrobial and a little bit anti-inflammatory as well and get people to drink that. That's usually kind of the best way to go. Something hot and soothing going right over your throat and vocal tract.

[00:09:22] Rosalyn: What would be like a microbial herb?

[00:09:24] Sarah: the most common antimicrobial herb that we know as singers is thyme, I really [00:09:30] love sage just because it grows in my garden abundantly It seems to be completely undeterred by our Scottish winters, mean I use what I have So that one is super strongly antimicrobial.

[00:09:43] Sarah: so basically the, essential oils that the plants, create, to protect themselves also are very, very handy for us as singers,

[00:09:51] Rosalyn: So let's think about some other? Scenarios other than the vocal loss. What about something like tha general fatiguel [00:10:00]

[00:10:01] Sarah: Wow, that's such a big one, and that's why people, in order to see a herbalist or a naturopath repeatedly, you know, they're going to be in their care for quite some time so, you know, you often see burnout. You know, you're burning the midnight oil and you're not eating well.

[00:10:18] Sarah: And you've got all sorts of other stressors in your life because when you get off the road, it's like, Oh God, now I've got to find a job. And yeah, there's an enormous amount of upheaval, this kind of nomadic lifestyle that it [00:10:30] eventually catches up to a lot of musicians. So, I mean, if you can prevent that from happening, if you can prevent yourself from hitting the wall Man, you're gonna just do yourself such a big favor because it's so hard to scale back from that point.

[00:10:43] Sarah: I find people who are experiencing burnout or even fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue If you do actually get to that point It can be really really hard to scale back so You that's way too big for the scope of this, of this, of this podcast. but I would [00:11:00] say arm yourself with some literature.

[00:11:02] Sarah: So there's a great book called the body keeps a score which I would recommend reading and get into your adaptogenic herbs. So these ones that we call like a class of herbs that are basically really, really good at helping the body respond to different forms of stress, whether it's emotional or physical stress say like exercising or like cold temperature exposure.

[00:11:25] Sarah: So there was a lot of study on a bunch of herbs in the former Soviet [00:11:30] Union in the 1960s. So herbs like ginseng and rhodiola, ashwagandha, schisandra is an amazing herb. Tastes really good. That's the sexiest herb I can think

[00:11:40] Rosalyn: Yeah, it sounds nice.

[00:11:41] Sarah: Yeah. Last year we did a show in Vancouver and were handing out what we were calling it?

[00:11:45] Sarah: Gin and tinctures. And it was literally like gin and tonic with a little splash of schisandra because it tastes so good. So yeah there's a bunch of different herbs that can be really, really supportive. But they work in slightly different ways and that's why there's not like one herb for everybody

[00:11:59] Rosalyn: [00:12:00] So another thing that you were doing on top of going to school for herbal medicine was that at least noticed this on your social media over the, pandemic, that you were doing a lot of kind of Songwriting circles or like songwriting instruction.

[00:12:10] Rosalyn: And we know you're a fantastic songwriter, but what compelled you to kind of embrace the mentorship or that kind of educational side of songwriting?

[00:12:19] Sarah: I think it intrigues me a lot. The process of being able to teach, the theory of songwriting or a theory of songwriting. There's a, I think, a pervading myth that, being able to write a song [00:12:30] is a. talent. It's not a skill. and it kind of breaks my heart when I see people, you know, often they're amateur songwriters, they've got other careers and they don't intend to be professional songwriters but they have like a song inside them that really needs to come out.

[00:12:44] Sarah: And I. really enjoy this process of facilitating, that's really a little bit more how I think about teaching, being like, this is how it's done. So, yeah, I really enjoy being able to kind of draw the song out of them, or give them the kind [00:13:00] of way markers to the end. recently saw a songwriter perform and it reminded me that songs are more than music smushed together with words.

[00:13:12] Sarah: A song is way more than that, then, you know, some melody and then some words that you wrote. It's got to be really, really coherent and the music has to support the words and the words have to support the music and it has to be this kind of what maybe seems like alchemy but when you break it down it can be a little bit easier to, to follow.

[00:13:29] Sarah: [00:13:30] So I like to give people my tips and tricks and oftentimes they get great results and they're, they're thrilled.

[00:13:36] Rosalyn: Yeah. I mean, it's so great. It's very generous not everybody wants to like share the recipe of their secret sauce, you know? That's very cool that you're, so open with folks. Heard you say that songwriting is emotional labor.

[00:13:51] Rosalyn: Does that mean to you? Mm

[00:13:53] Sarah: freaking emotional. And I often think that a concert is a bit like group therapy. Especially if [00:14:00] you write those emotional songs. and I'm talking about, like, deep, cathartic emotional songs. Upbeat kind of party songs are also emotional songs.

[00:14:08] Sarah: These are emotions. But you may have to be there a little bit less. to support your audience than say, if you're going to I don't sing a song about your dog dying or your child going off to school or your grandfather in the first world wars, second world war, my grandfather was definitely not in the first world war.

[00:14:28] Sarah: And yeah, and things like [00:14:30] that. So I think that as a songwriter it is emotional work. And I didn't realize going into this, that that it's very emotional work and it can be really exhausting. you know, you get off stage and after the whole day, you're on tour, you, you get up at five, you drive for some God awful amount of time and you get there and you soundcheck and you, and finally, you do the show.

[00:14:51] Sarah: And you try and give them everything you have, and then at the end of the show, someone comes up to you and is like, God, you remind me so much of my daughter who committed suicide last [00:15:00] year, and I'm like, Oh, whoa, okay, not prepared, not equipped. and actually it was through training as a, a therapist, as a medical herbalist, that I learned this kind of boundary ing that has, has really, really helped, that I can, I'll switch into almost like clinician mode.

[00:15:16] Sarah: Like, okay, framing the situation, you need me in this moment, and I'm gonna be pretty clear in my mind how much time and emotion I can give you. Maybe it's five minutes. maybe it's a little cuddle. Maybe it's not, you know, like people [00:15:30] often, and this is such a gorgeous thing, but like, they'll have seen you on stage, and, they feel really connected with you.

[00:15:35] Sarah: They feel like they know you, and you get off stage, and you're like, whoa, who are

[00:15:38] Rosalyn: Mm hmm. Well, you just told them all your secrets.

[00:15:41] Rosalyn: you

[00:15:41] Rosalyn: stood on stage and told all of your secrets directly to them. So

[00:15:44] Sarah: absolutely. And, and in a way it's like there should be a reciprocal exchange, right? And, and you've got to be compassionate to the fact that like this whole time, they've paid their money and they've invested emotionally in this concert and like what a privilege that [00:16:00] is.

[00:16:00] Sarah: But at the same time, sometimes that's what happens.

[00:16:02] Rosalyn: in the band I was in, our, lead singer wrote this, absolutely gorgeous. make everybody cry not a dry in the house song about about her grandmother passing away

[00:16:11] Rosalyn: And sure enough, every single time we would perform it, I mean, it's the kind of song that, that would really touch people and, made them then compelled to share.

[00:16:21] Rosalyn: So, you know, at the end of the show, while, some other band members might be, Oh, can I buy you a beer? You know, how's it going? How's your tour? She would get a lineup of, [00:16:30] of folks being like, my grandmother died too. Here's the story. And it was like, it was a lot. I think she, handled it very well.

[00:16:39] Rosalyn: And I think, actually really appreciated that vulnerability and that exchange with folks. But it's a really interesting dynamic that like when you put yourself out there, then other people also want to. share with you in, in the same way, which is neat.

[00:16:51] Sarah: And that is a, really cool thing. But in terms of circling back to, the burnout, is that, that can really emotionally burn you out. And I think a [00:17:00] lot of women or, like, female presenting people, cause we're very often traditionally they sort of, the healers and the, cuddlers and the, and the mothers and the primary caregivers.

[00:17:11] Sarah: And I think a lot of people maybe identify and say, Hey, this person is going to be okay with my feelings. and you know, I'm always okay with somebody's feelings, but am I always prepared for it? No. I

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[00:18:06] Rosalyn: Can you talk a little bit about that? You mentioned a boundary, like you said, you kind of go into clinician mode and put up this boundary. For somebody who doesn't have that training though, how would you recommend that they kind of create that for themselves?

[00:18:18] Sarah: Yeah. I mean, I suppose it was kind of due to practice that you have to be very aware of how the other person who's speaking to you. So like, if you're going to use like singer and audience [00:18:30] member as kind of like a herbalist patient relationship I kind of slipped into what's called unconditional positive regard.

[00:18:36] Sarah: And you know, it's a very common term used in therapy where No matter what they share with me I cannot let on that I am judging them in any way. And, and, and I mean that's, that's a fine line because like obviously we haven't technically entered a, a clinical relationship and so, you know, if they share something super inappropriate or if they, make a transgression then like, you know, out the window but that's I think the [00:19:00] same thing in any professional situation.

[00:19:01] Sarah: So anyways, I kind of, I kind of just slip into it and I'm like, okay, this person needs me right now and I know that the exchange for me is that I give them what they need, and then I give myself what I need, which is typically just space And I don't want this to sound like it's not genuine because it's genuine every time. But to hold space for this person. And then to indicate when I can't give anything else. So like, thank you so much for sharing. And I might say, I, I need to, pack up my instruments, which is usually the case, you know, or I [00:19:30] need to talk to somebody else, which is, you know, these are, it's not an excuse.

[00:19:33] Sarah: It's reality. So yeah, just kind of indicate that there is a, there's a timeframe. and I think that that, Also preserves them as well for not oversharing.

[00:19:43] Rosalyn: Speaking of touring

[00:19:45] Rosalyn: and performing, you have a new album out.

[00:19:48] Rosalyn: Are you hitting the road?

[00:19:49] Sarah: Hitting the Dusty Trail?

[00:19:50] Sarah: yeah, it's been good. Basically as soon as I got out of herb school, which is about 11 months ago, I went on tour which is, you know back to the burnout thing. Don't do that [00:20:00] Don't get out of an intense training program and go on tour But anyways, that's, that is what I did.

[00:20:05] Sarah: And I've been peddling this record that I'm really, really stoked about. It's called Turn to Gold and it was my first record in five years. We recorded it, there's four of us in the band. And it has this very tight, almost like a moment in time, time capsule feel.

[00:20:24] Sarah: I think all records for me, I like, that's how I like to make a record. I want it to be quick and done [00:20:30] because to me that unifies the band. the record. I know some people who take years to record a record, but I know for me, I'd probably overthink everything. And so, it's good for there to be a timeframe.

[00:20:42] Sarah: Like, nope, you're not allowed to think about this anymore. It's done. So yeah, we did this in Vancouver. Matt Kelly who is a genius on keys and guitars and pedal steel Leon Power on drums and our good friend, James McElhinney

[00:20:57] Sarah: on bass. and then [00:21:00] me, I'm just, you know, banging away on the acoustic guitar.

[00:21:03] Sarah: I did write the songs too. and off we went, we just did a record and. I'm really stoked on it. okay. I've never made a record that I want to listen to afterward. And it feels sort of silly. And I'm like, Oh, is it weird for me to want to listen to my own record? but I do.

[00:21:21] Sarah: And I mean, and it's not like I enjoy the sound of my own voice. I enjoy the musicianship Yeah. And they were also hands on so you can remember like, Oh, that was. [00:21:30] It's Matt's idea or that was a lot of it is producer Johnny Payne's idea. And Johnny has become a really good friend. one great outcome from that record is that I've got some great pal

[00:21:40] Rosalyn: Well, how can people listen to it? Where can they

[00:21:43] Sarah: It's like everywhere. It's literally

[00:21:46] Rosalyn: Look under, look under your chair right

[00:21:47] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. it's like it's under your shoe. It's like gum, you know, it's like it's dog poo in the park. It's gonna get on your no, it's not it sounds better and it looks better anywhere [00:22:00] on the internet you can also buy if you wrote if you want physicals, One cool thing is that it's called Turn to Gold, so, my lovely manager, Joseph, he said, so obviously this is going to be a gold record, right?

[00:22:14] Sarah: And I'm like, yeah, sure, let's make gold vinyl. And so the vinyl is actually gold. I mean, not like, err, like gold to the poncho of gold, but it's the color of gold. I

[00:22:24] Rosalyn: But that sounds very cool. And I'm going to try and get one of those But that's very exciting that you'll be [00:22:30] touring the album and, tootling around Ontario. I hope everyone goes out to see you play

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[00:22:34] Sarah: It's a total toodle. We're going to Port Hope, and we're going to Brighton,

[00:22:38] Sarah: Ontario, and then we're also doing Northern Lights Festival Boreal.

[00:22:43] Rosalyn: Oh

[00:22:44] Sarah: stoked. I'm so stoked.

[00:22:47] Rosalyn: I love that fest. I want to draw folks' attention if they're looking you up, which they all will do if they aren't already familiar with you that you have recorded a very beautiful video at the Folk Music Ontario Conference [00:23:00] 2023.

[00:23:00] Rosalyn: You were there as a official showcase artist, but also we're very, very generous with your time there and we're a mentor in our Developing Artists Program. Do you want to tell us a little bit

[00:23:12] Rosalyn: about what that experience was like?

[00:23:13] Sarah: So cool. I mean, first of all those people don't need my help. They're so freaking talented. But I just enjoyed getting to know them. The artist mentorship program is very well oiled, I think. And I know that a lot of the artists involved got a lot out of it.

[00:23:29] Sarah: And I [00:23:30] also found the quality. really strong. So a really, really cool thing. And so, Jesse and Nicholas, who I was working with very different artists. But I figured, hey guys, we're at Folk Music Ontario. Do you know what that means? Willie P. Bennett. And so I wanted to sing Willie's Diamond Joe.

[00:23:52] Sarah: With them. They'd never heard of Willie P. Actually, I'm lying. I'm pretty sure Nicholas knew who Willie P. Bennett was. I grew up on Willie P. Bennett. I grew up on a [00:24:00] steady diet of Willie P. Bennett, Stan Rogers, Hank Williams, Nancy Griffiths.

[00:24:13] Sarah: So yeah, we sang Willie Stam and Joe and they just slayed the harmonies. And then like Tim from the Barrel Boys had this great idea to film it kind of on this long sort of bridge thing.

[00:24:22] Sarah: And so we had to time it so well, cause people kept coming and it's a, you know, it's a festival, so people are yelling and screaming like, Hey, Joe, like [00:24:30] what panel are you going to do right now and stuff. And so, anyways, we finally. got it done and it was brilliant. I loved it. I think it sounds so good.

[00:24:40] Rosalyn: Looks great and sounds great. I definitely got a little misty when I watched it. It's a really, really well done video. The performances are amazing. It's a beautiful song. You can check it out. I think you have it on your

[00:24:52] Rosalyn: Instagram, but it's also,

[00:24:53] Rosalyn: all over the Folk Music Ontario stuff.

[00:24:55] Sarah: Do you have it on YouTube?

[00:24:57] Sarah: I

[00:24:57] Rosalyn: we, we do have it on [00:25:00] YouTube.

[00:25:00] Rosalyn: You can go to the Folk Music Ontario YouTube channel and check it out. And the other developing artists program, artists and, and their mentors also recorded videos and they're also very beautiful. But Sarah Janes is the only one that was recorded on that weird inter building bridge.

[00:25:14] Rosalyn: So that's a, a unique feature

[00:25:16] Sarah: It's cool. And also I think it provided pretty cool acoustics.

[00:25:19] Rosalyn: yeah, absolutely.

[00:25:21] Sarah: It's like a really long reverb.

[00:25:23] Rosalyn: Yeah, that's a great one. And, it's such a great program. I'm really glad you were able to be a part of.

[00:25:28] Sarah: Oh God. [00:25:30] I was thrilled. I mean, kind of a long, you know, that's about the, the teaching thing. You're right. Not everybody wants to teach songwriting. And I didn't, I didn't teach songwriting to these folks. I kind of, we talked about songwriting if they wanted to talk about it. But yeah, there is something really, really cool about.

[00:25:46] Sarah: helping somebody work through whatever it is that they might be stumbling on in their music career. And whether it's how to finish a song or how to approach, uh, delegate at a, at a festival or a conference you know, how to get the [00:26:00] most out of folk music on Ontario, how to not blow your voice out, how to avoid a hangover.

[00:26:04] Sarah: I still haven't figured it out. The only way I know is to not drink. So anyway it's a really, really cool program.

[00:26:09] Rosalyn: yeah, it's been just totally awesome to watch the cycle of people going through it. there's something specific about like one on one mentorship in this industry that I think is, is really neat because there are kind of, you know, there's egos we're dealing with, with, with.

[00:26:23] Rosalyn: Artists and there, there's, and maybe an E goes in music industry folks as well. So yeah, it can be hard to like say, let's say if you're [00:26:30] in like a group discussion or attend a panel or, in some sort of kind of group setting that can be, or in any setting that can be difficult to approach folks with like vulnerability, I guess.

[00:26:39] Rosalyn: And the thing I liked about that program is that kind of one on one mentorship.

[00:26:42] Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. I didn't have that. when I was a little baby songwriter, not in a formal sense. I had artists who kind of were. a few steps ahead of me and I kind of emulated what they did, you know, I looked at where they were playing and I was literally like, what are their records look like?

[00:26:59] Sarah: I'm going to make [00:27:00] a record that looks like this. You know, from an aesthetic point of view and then, you know, I was lucky to meet people and they were really, really kind, but I definitely never had a conversation of how do you approach a folk music conference, you know, not in any kind of structured way.

[00:27:16] Sarah: I went to Folk Alliance in Toronto in 2012. And I didn't get my sleep cycle back for about two weeks. I was up till eight in the morning every night. I had so much fun, but I went in with super low expectations. Because I thought it was going to destroy my love of [00:27:30] making music because I was confronting the industry for the first time, wasn't nearly as bad as I thought.

[00:27:35] Sarah: In fact, it was really fun.

[00:27:37] Rosalyn: That's an interesting, Thing to say though like that confronting the industry might make you like lose your love for the art Had you seen that happen to other people or were you just kind of girding your, your loins against something

[00:27:49] Rosalyn: you

[00:27:49] Rosalyn: perceived might happen?

[00:27:50] Sarah: I don't think I'd seen it happen to other people. I just maybe had acquired some preconceived ideas that, you know, the industry is going to grind you [00:28:00] down. And, I mean, the reality is this is like more and more, we are, as artists, we're loaded up with more and more responsibilities that can really grind you down.

[00:28:07] Sarah: But yeah. Songwriters are artists, but songwriters especially, I think, tend to be pretty sensitive people, and I am certainly one of those. So, yeah, it wasn't the easiest thing to do, it still isn't. I went to a conference for You know, festival a week ago and I was still confronting those same feelings.

[00:28:27] Sarah: And I had to psych myself up with this, [00:28:30] okay maybe you've seen it, is this meme of like a little girl holding like a giant owl on her, I don't know, she's at like a falconry exhibit and, There's a giant owl perched on her arm and she's just got this look of like, you know, she's, she is so powerful and confident in that moment.

[00:28:49] Sarah: There's a freaking owl on her arm and the photo is so good. and I think the caption is like, may you have all the confidence of, a five year old girl holding an owl and I literally was like [00:29:00] holding this image in my mind the whole conference. You know, if I felt like I was having a little wobble I just think about this five year old girl holding an owl.

[00:29:07] Sarah: It's like, I am holding a bird of prey on my arm right now and no one can touch me.

[00:29:12] Rosalyn: So before we wrap up we're talking to, Each of our guests this season, we're in season three of the podcast now. Thank you. Thank you. And one of the questions that comes up a lot, I mean, obviously in my day to day given the work that we do, but the conversation of [00:29:30] like, what is folk comes up all the time.

[00:29:32] Rosalyn: is. A, just like my favorite topic of conversation anyways but it seems to kind of ignite a bit of a spark in folks so we're asking our guests this season to give us a bit of a insight into, you know, what, folk means to them and it can be. Like literal and, or totally out there it can be the, the feeling of it, what is the music, what is the, what is the vibe, what is the word but I'm wondering if you, Sarah Jane Scouten what does folk mean [00:30:00] to you?

[00:30:00] Sarah: Gosh, like from a lot of different perspectives, I mean, I think folk is a sound. Often really rooted in traditional instruments. My first inclination is to focus on tradition. and it doesn't matter if that is like Ukrainian folk tradition or if it's hip hop, right.

[00:30:15] Sarah: tradition where you are standing on the shoulders of those who've come before you. And I think about it. learning and being respectfully Innovative. So you can, be as original as you want, but know where you're coming from, know [00:30:30] where you are exploring from.

[00:30:32] Sarah: If you are using different traditions, showing the respect, showing, you know, And if it has to do with like cultural protocols, knowing what those are. So in a way it's kind of a little bit like being an ethnomusicologist, just like a little bit, and it might be conscious or it might not be.

[00:30:47] Sarah: So to me, that's always been the case. And I've felt that I belong to a tradition of bluegrass folk, Americana songwriters that come from Canada and are [00:31:00] world renowned. Like we are very, very respected in our cultural songwriting acumen. And I've always felt really proud to say that I was a Canadian songwriter because of what that evoked.

[00:31:12] Sarah: And it wasn't just Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, Leonard Cohen. It was Stan Rogers and Willie Dunn and, Kate Nana McGarrigle all of this. So yeah, that's, I think we're. We continue to contribute and slightly distinguish ourselves from Americans, for instance, obviously, there's a [00:31:30] huge overlap.

[00:31:30] Sarah: So yeah let's go with tradition, I guess.

[00:31:32] Rosalyn: I love it. That was great. No wrong answers. And where can people find out more about you? Where can they order your gold records? Where can they find out where you're touring?

[00:31:42] Sarah: Yeah, I have a gold record. So I can order it if they're in Canada, they can order it on the light organ records website, or they can go to my website, SarahJaneScouten. com. Also, what I'd much prefer is meeting them in person at a show.

[00:31:56] Sarah: So, I'm gonna be all over British Columbia, a little bit of [00:32:00] Manitoba, a little bit of Ontario this summer. So if you can make it to a show, I'd Love to meet you or see you again, whoever you may be, and I'll be toting my wares. At the shows, I probably will also have herbal medicine with me, for sale.

[00:32:15] Rosalyn: Nice.

[00:32:16] Rosalyn: so, you know, make sure you check that out. Find out where Sarah Janes Kelton's coming to a tour. A place near you have a running list of any of your physical ailments that you can present to

[00:32:28] Sarah: I do, I think, yeah. Yes, I'll [00:32:30]

[00:32:30] Rosalyn: She'll check out your

[00:32:31] Sarah: consultations in the green room. I can't guarantee full confidentiality in the green room. So they're going to have to set up. I'll refer them to another herbalist. That's what I'll do.

[00:32:40] Rosalyn: But please, please do check out all the places that you can find Sarah Jane Scouten. It's been such a delight to chat with you.

Credits
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[00:32:54] Rosalyn: That's all for this episode. Friends The ReFolkUs Podcast is brought to you by Folk Music Ontario. [00:33:00] Find out more by heading to folk music ontario.org/refolkus. That's R-E-F-O-L-K-U-S. The podcast is produced by Kayla Nezon and Rosalyn Dennett and mixed by Jordan Moore at The Pod Cabin. The opening theme is by King Cardiac, and the artwork is by Jaymie Karn.