Protecting Your Mental Health with Cindy Doire

[00:00:00] Rosalyn: Hello and welcome to Refolkus. We've got an incredible guest with us today, Cindy Doire. Cindy is a registered psychotherapist qualifying, a certified trauma informed yoga teacher, a somatic coach, and an award-winning singer songwriter. She's a therapist, teacher, artist, and coach who embraces the difference in every day and every moment.

Hello, Cindy.

[00:00:20] Cindy: Hi.

[00:00:21] Rosalyn: How are you doing?

[00:00:21] Cindy: I'm doing well. I'm happy to be here.

[00:00:24] Rosalyn: I am so glad that you can join us here. For those of you who weren't at the Folk Music Ontario 2022 conference we were so lucky to be able to present for sessions, we call them the Refocus Wellness Sessions. We had a whole room dedicated to it. And it was a wellness space for folks to drop in. Cindy was there with your colleague. And we're open to having conversations and group conversations and in kind of the therapy space with artists and just folks, any delegates that were there that needed to have someone to chat with.

But then we also did some focused group discussions about a variety of really really interesting topics that kind of dug, you know, a little deeper into the mental wellness around health and wellness for artists.

And I think applicable to folks in the industry as well. you know, Around performance and identity and social justice

So I wanted to kick things off by first getting you, tell us a little bit about your journey up to this point. So, tell us a little bit about how you've arrived at this unique position to be someone working in the therapy space.

Working in the mental wellness space but also having the perspective of an artist.

[00:01:36] Cindy: Yeah, sure. I mean I was a touring full-time musician for many years. I launched my first album in 2007. So yeah, navigating through. Life as an artist and everything that entails. So knowing the ins and outs of all aspects having been with a label, having played in different bands. So kind of the wide spectrum of experience there, which I think is the case for most artists, right?

You kind of play, you wear a lot of hats, you play a lot of roles and all of that. In my journey as an artist, we founded a collective called The Ladies In Waiting uh, which Melanie Brule uh, you know, Andrea Ramallo, Fay Bla, so many amazing female artists were part of.

And through coming together as artists and creating that sense of community you know, We were each other's safe space. So we saw this need of, let's unpack some of the stuff that we are facing. The depression of coming home from a tour. The strain of, our mental, emotional, physical wellbeing of like, at what cost are we doing the hustle, right?

So we, we really started doing a lot of mental health advocacy in some, we did album compilations where we would team up with CAM-H, raise funds for them, bring in some of their workers, try to destigmatize, the fact that, mental health is still something that people kind of suffer in isolation, right?

So trying to just break down some of those barriers. So it was always a big part of our mandate as artists, as a collective to kind of just do some of that work. So for me uh, when I started doing my yoga trainings just about 10 years ago, at first it was just for survival. Like, I didn't really wanna be a teacher.

I was just like, I was broken, my body was broken. I didn't help that I lived in Toronto three flights of stairs. So I'd come home and I'd have to lug all my gear up so I don't get that parking ticket cuz nobody cares that you're an artist unloading your gear. So it was like my body felt broken and I started to do that work for myself and I did those trainings so that I could Sustain in this world as a touring artist, I was like, there's not longevity for me.

If I continue the way I'm continuing, I felt just depleted in all sorts of ways. And the up and down of the elevator, and we're gonna go into that external validation, but like going on tour, feeling like, oh, I have a routine. I know what to do every morning. It's laid out. And then you come home and you know that self-drive and it's gone.

And where's who am I, what's my purpose? These existential questions, and all of it, right? So, yoga really helped me just to first of all, find some form of alignment and that physical strength, emotional creating space for myself and you can take that with you wherever you go.

So that was really helpful. And I did multiple trainings. I started working uh, in trauma. I lived in India and there was a lot of stuff of just, working with a lot of women and seeing the need for that cultivation of processing suffering and abuse and all that.

So I started to work a little bit in trauma. And then when Covid hit I don't do well idling. So it was a perfect opportunity to then do my master's, which leads me to today. I'm now in that the final week. So I see the light at the end of the tunnel. So, yeah, so I'm just finishing my practicum which is just a few weeks of finishing that master's.

So that's my condensed little journey. And now trying to bring in. The yoga, the creativity, the artistic expression with, again this, healing aspect of all things kind of coming together. So that's been my journey.

[00:05:17] Rosalyn: Amazing. Congratulations

[00:05:18] Cindy: Oh, thanks. I know. I don't think I could have done it without, again, like the gains of going through hardship sometimes. Right. Like it, having somewhere to put my energy was so beneficial to me and I don't think I could have actually done it had that chaos not kind of pushed me in that direction.

So,

[00:05:36] Rosalyn: Let's explore that for a minute, because I feel like that is certainly a prevalent theme in the conversations we're having on this program. You were able to manifest that energy into this master's program.

You know, other people went different ways, but we all kind of collectively had to push the reset button in, during the pandemic. How do you think that folks are kind of coming out of that now and readjusting? do you feel like coming out of it now, you're like a, have a different perspective?

[00:06:08] Cindy: Oh, big time. Well, I think it's unique to each person for sure. But I think collectively what I've noticed, first of all, there's an awareness of bandwidth. Like people are a bit more protective of where they're putting their energy. I think there's a sense that this forced break allowed people to reevaluate in a way that maybe when you're in the, the movement of the hustle of that continuity, you don't really get a chance to break free from that pattern, that habitual pattern was broken.

So then a forced shattering and with a shattering comes a transformation, and that's gonna look different for every single person. But there was a shattering of everyone's realities. and there's grief in that too, right? Because there's like, okay, well that as I knew it is there, and here we are moving forward.

So I think that for me, being creative during that time was impossible. I didn't have that sense of drive And that's why for me, the masters personally, that worked because it was like, here's what you gotta do. And I didn't have a choice.

So it was directed. It was like, okay, I gotta do this research paper, whatever. . Whereas creatively we know that's not how it works. It's a different muscle. It's a different part of the brain. It's like music uses the whole brain, right? So you're, kind of, you need to have this sense of, I don't know.

There's, for me, it's, I can't really plan it. I can put time aside for it, but, there's so many factors that come into that magical moment that leads to creation. So I think coming out of it, I mean, we're seeing it, right? People are burning out on tour, people are canceling tours.

People are struggling to fill up rooms too. So there's not only the performance perspective, but what's happened to our audience, right? and this sense of division that's happened on so many levels, and bringing at the forefront of so many things came up that now we're in the, okay, we have to.

Look at things that are hard to look at, right? We have to address things about ourselves as a society that we've turned away from for a long time, and that there's pain in that, but there's accountability in it too. So there's a lot, there's just so many layers. I think that, make up where we're are now as a community, as a collective, as a individually, like there's, it's just such an interesting time and it's hard to hear when you're going through something that is really hard, individually, whatever it is, it's hard to hear or to think about the gains that come from that, right?

Because when you're in it, you're in it. But I think when you start to move through some of these things, eventually you, we start to make meaning. From there, the depth of what we've gained slowly starts to present itself. And I think that can be really beautiful.

But the process can be painful, right?

[00:09:11] Rosalyn: You mentioned grief and I, I think that's a great word to express. What a lot of people were feeling and, and, there's some folks who were able to manifest creativity out of it and folks who weren't and, and put their energy somewhere else.

know, and also folks who felt lost and were pretty stuck in that grief. Do you have ways of processing or going through those stages of grieving in this kind of scenario?

[00:09:37] Cindy: ... the thing with grief too, there's no timeline, right? It's different for everyone. Like mourning parts of yourself, mourning parts of the world, mourning parts of all of these things. So for me, it happens, depending where I'm at in those healing stages.

So at first it was complete dissociation. Like that's, I bury myself. I like to suppress. I'm like, I can't, I'm gonna just distract myself. And that's what I did academically. I'm like, I'm gonna distract myself with this. . long term, it's not the healthiest. At some point you have to face, you have to start looking and, going into the layers and whatever's buried alive is alive.

It's gonna come up. Right. So we can do that temporarily, you know, and same with grief, like people who bury their grief at a certain point it's gonna come up. Right. And so my coping skills it's a combination of things for one, using art. Oh my gosh. Like to be able to express, to articulate something and experience it first.

Externalizes it, it gives it a place to live outside of yourself you can then integrate these parts of yourselves in a way that makes sense. There's a narrative that you're creating through your expression. Right? And you can do that with any kind of art. It doesn't have to be words, it can be visual, it can be, anything, even cooking, like if you're allowing to move through it, so for me, I do a lot of somatic work, a lot of embodied work of like tuning in and like giving space to that first person felt sense that we disconnect from when we're trying to protect ourselves from what's happening, right? So the body has this beautiful capacity. To get us through hard moments.

By disconnecting we dissociate, it's like, oh, that's too much. We're gonna, we're gonna just not really fully be there in that moment, but the body tuning in and then moving through those things and connecting with ourselves, creating space for those things and nurturing those parts of yourself.

Right. So I feel like for me, there was a lot of healing that happened through that kind of work. Your breath being in the moment. Being in the here and now. I think what happened with the pandemic is the facade of control that we thought we had was ripped away, right? So what happens when we're all faced with the reality of uncertainty is we all get scared and anxious.

the frequencies are going up. and we're all in our fight or flight. When we're in our fight or flight or we're easily ending up there, like our window of tolerance did this. So before maybe we had this capacity to just move through all the ups and downs, and then now you know, we're a bit more fragile and that's a fluid thing that happens with ourselves and we're stepping out of our capacity to handle things And a lot of people are having panic attacks, some people are shutting down. Like, so it's like, what's your emotional home? When you're in a situation where it feels like a little bit too much, do you collapse? Do you feel like the world's a dark place and you isolate yourself and what's the point and shut down?

Or do you get hyper-vigilant, anxious, that mobility feeling, that heart racing, all of that. and we all do all of the things, but we have these differences. Tendencies, right? So for me I kind of hang out in that high hyper response where anxiety, and I use that energy and you know, I'm running and I'm trying to get it outta my system.

And then at a certain point I collapse and I'm like, what's the point? And I'm like, so I do this one until it's no longer sustainable, and then I completely collapse.

[00:13:32] Rosalyn: I think that's a common one, especially with folks who are Used to that tour life, you look at these, tour schedules that are like, seven days on and one day is off and then seven days on, and that's, and those seven days on aren't, your nine to five.

And then you go home and chill out. You're on the entire time unless you're in the van with all the doors closed, you're still with your colleagues and you have maybe five minutes in the bathroom, but probably not longer because probably somebody else needs to use the bathroom.

So

[00:14:00] Cindy: yeah. So how do you refuel? Right?

[00:14:04] Rosalyn: You're on the whole time. And I, that adrenaline and that fight or flight I think comes up in a sustained mode for a lot of people. And I think we were used to doing that a lot more. Pre pandemic, it was like, yeah, I can go out for 30 days, no problem.

Only 30 days. Great, let's do it. Versus like, now we're seeing folks be like two weeks, no, you know, two or three weeks is a, people are, kind of maxing out on how far they can go. I think post pandemic and, you know, you mentioned artists that are starting to cancel tour.

Shawn Mendes recently that happened, not that recently, but he had to cancel a large tour and, amazingly, said, it's mental health and I, my mental and physical health can't keep up with that kind of schedule anymore. So. I kind of wonder, is it like, should we have always done this?

Should we have always been in this in tune with our bodies and our, and our minds and maybe we can thank the pandemic. Is that like a big reset for some folks or are we just all kind of barreling back to that old normal or whatever it is and we just have to get our sea legs back or something.

[00:15:04] Cindy: Yeah, I think it's probably both and everything in between, right? Because some people, it's this sense of like, I'm not doing that anymore. I'm setting a boundary there. This is like, that was unhealthy and I'm not going back there. Whereas some people, it might feel like if you're an introvert and you were working so hard to get out there, and then two years of being able to just be your introverted self, imagine now like having to try and get back into that habitual, it's, we're h we're adaptable and we're habitual creatures.

So it's like, I feel like authentic, real living happens when we break patterns, when we break habitual. So then that's different for everyone. But I do feel like for some people it might. Be healthy. And for some people maybe it's not right. So I don't think it's one thing or one or the other. I think for some people it's amazing.

It's led them to these changes that really honors themselves. It allows them to honor them where they're at and meeting themselves, where they're at in this moment, which is amazing. And yes, we should always do that. We should have always done that and we should always do that. And the music industry, let's face it, it doesn't really cater to that, right?

Because it's like, cuz you at what cost, well at the cost of opportunities, right? at what cost when you canceled the tour at the cost of your living, at the cost of your income, right? There's no backup plan saying, oh yeah, you're not feeling up for it. Don't worry. We got you. Nobody's kind of there ensuring that okay, right?

It's like there's the person and then there's the product, and at which point does the person stop being the person and the product and vice versa. it's so tricky and I feel like this is why, like this safe space that was created at F M O is so beautiful because what it offered people was that shared reflection space.

A space where you can then connect. and feel seen and feel heard and you're not the only one who's so happy to see this amazing artist yet feeling completely crushed, cuz now you're not good enough. And how come I didn't get the crowd response this person's getting, but I'm happy for them.

And why can't I just be in the moment? Like, it's so many things, right?

[00:17:29] Rosalyn: Oh, gosh, that's so many things. yeah that's a big one to unpack, I think, the comparison that we do because it happens in person and happens all of the time online.

it's so nice to get to talk about it and we're all kind of feeling, maybe not all of us, but a lot of us are collectively feeling that.

So maybe if we can all, oh, you're feeling that too, and you're feeling that too and we're all putting up this certain image and we're all comparing ourselves. Maybe we can stop doing that. I don't know. Is that possible? Can we work on this?

[00:18:01] Cindy:

We can definitely at least be curious about it when it happens, and I think that's, being curious about what's happening in our body allows us, because we get into a part in our brain when we're doing that stuff where it's like, you're no longer, it's like an inner critic. It's that like you're not in, in that whole picture reasoning place in, in your mind, right?

So if you're able to be curious or to have Like the skill of the wise mind, like taking a breath before just impulsively reacting, for example. So when you start to feel lesser than, or start to feel jealous if you're at this amazing show that you just wanna be in the moment and enjoying it for what it is, but somehow it lands and you go, well, hang on.

The crowd didn't clap like that for me. And I guess, and all of that spiraling path. So it's like, okay, well, being curious about that and going, okay, well maybe that thought will enter. But then, and again, that mindfulness process of being non-judgment, mental with yourself, that self-compassion of like, well of course, you know, I still got a showcase.

There's so many things that shouldn't be associated with our value of self-worth in the arts. And this is the part where it gets really tricky because it's like you have to rely on this external validation. We like realistically, you can't be successful as an artist if you don't have the fans.

You don't have the interests, you don't have the validation, right? But as a human, as a person, we need to have that sense of self-worth outside of that. So maybe it's a process of compartmentalization of like me as a person, and this is an extension. My art is an extension of me, it's an expression, and it's either gonna land or it's not gonna land.

Regardless. That expression is beautiful and it's valid. Whether it's popular is a separate thing, but the art of expression in itself, right? That in itself and the gift that you get, For yourself we were talking about coping skills earlier. The gift that you give yourself in allowing yourself to creatively explore, to creatively, get your art out there.

It's courageous, it's brave, there's so many layers to it. maybe if we shift the focus, and it's really hard because we all wanna be successful with our art. Right? And not everyone gets to do that. And it's also the music industry, it's hard, right? It's changing. Like, where's the money coming from?

There's all these streaming platforms. Like where's the magic money that's gonna land in the, in, in the lives of the artist?

[00:20:40] Rosalyn: great question.

You brought up the internal versus external validation which I wanted to get into a bit because. As artists and also in industry as well. Cause I feel like this sometimes when I come back from a conference or, doing something even if I'm not necessarily performing. we're coming off of some really high highs sometimes, or here adrenaline's up.

our cups are full. And I mean, for me personally, you know, I'll, oh, I got to play the Ottawa Blues fest to an incredible crowd that was on their feet. And then I come home and like a child pukes into my hands, I'm like, okay. Neat. Little different feedback than what I was hoping for.

And, you know, nobody's standing up applauding loading the dishwasher or doing a load of laundry and doing those things. So, it's, how can folks kinda mitigate some of that high highs and low lows and kind of find, I actually have a word for it.

I can't, I know somebody else coined this. I think it was, I'm gonna, I'm gonna attribute it to Matt Foster from the Crooked Brothers, and he has his own solo project. I'm gonna shout out to Matt Foster on that, cause I think he came up with this. But it's called The Depressed Evil, and it's after you go to. A festival and feeling all the good feelings, and then you get home and you're just like, I just need to shut down for like two days and be sad. And this is my, there's the festival and then there's the depressed-ival.

[00:22:14] Cindy: Oh, the depress, Matt, yes, I know, I've experienced the depressed-ival after hanging out with the crooked brothers and then going home to my apartment in Toronto. But that is such a good question. First of all, because I think that we're at the, it's the elevator. It's like, oh, I'm feeling good.

The elevator goes up. Oh gosh, now I'm alone. Elevator goes down, or my children are puking into my hands or whatever. So I think when you're living that high moment, right? When you're feeling on top of the world, that check in with yourself in that moment, cuz we do this when we're feeling so low, this whole, like, this too shall pass.

And this is just a moment. And I think if we start to also check in with ourselves when we're feeling high and kind of going like, hang on, this doesn't define me and this too shall pass, right? So that you're kind of checking in with yourself as you're on your way all the way up and not allowing yourself to really feed into that validation as a source of self-worth.

And that's hard. Like I'm saying it as though like, oh well here's the answer. But like, that is really hard to do because we are just living the moment of it. We just receive it and it lands and it feels good. So why wouldn't we wanna receive that? Right? And we do wanna receive that, but we just wanna keep it in check.

That's not our source of fuel, right? It's like, and that's hard. And I mean, it's gonna look differently for everyone. But like, the essence of who you are is the essence of who you are. And your art is an external thing.

It's an expression of this part of yourself, right? If you stop making art, do you lose all of your sense of self-worth? Like what if one day you change gears then what happens? Right? And then again, grief, right? , you have to mourn those parts of yourself. And I'm sure like mothers, how did you redefine yourself?

Nobody told you that there were parts of yourself as a young woman that were gonna literally die. You know, Like those parts are gone and it's like there's grief there too. It's beautiful, again, a shattering that leads to a transformation. And when you resist it, I think when you resist the change that needs to happen or you resist the transformation, then you're met with some additional, like, whatever resist will persist.

Right? So like allowing yourself to move through it and being open to it. Again, way easier said than done,

[00:24:45] Rosalyn: That's so interesting because I never, I don't think I ever thought about disrupting the process of receiving that validation, and that's my own personality type where I'm like, yes, I want all the. the,

[00:24:59] Cindy: dopa either. Yeah, the oxytocin give it

[00:25:03] Rosalyn: oxytocin.

Yes,

[00:25:04] Cindy: Were toning all the happy

[00:25:06] Rosalyn: take it all. Oh, yes, please. I never thought about interrupting that process as as an artist or, it's almost like counterintuitive or maybe not, maybe it's the opposite of that, but, it would've felt to me like counterintuitive from like a live in the moment, to like stop before going on stage and imagine the puke in my hands and be like, it's okay.

[00:25:27] Cindy: Yeah. But even like, cuz it's like you wanna indulge in that moment For sure. That's a beautiful moment. Why would you not indulge in that moment? Right. You deserve to indulge in that moment. For sure. But it could even be this sense of awareness, that mindfulness piece of like, This is not what makes me worthy, but this is beautiful.

You know, This is not where I get my sense of worth, but wow, what a beautiful moment this is. But I'm worthy with or without this. Like having that sense of just that awareness of like, okay, when you're like feeling all of this hormonal cocktail in your body, that's gonna lead to that depressed, evil and

You know? So trying to find that balance so you're not like, yay, validation up we go, oh gosh, no validation. and of course it's gonna be all of these things. these are waves that are, we're always kind of moving with and moving through. But if we. Be a little bit less extreme with the sources of that validation.

Right. And just check in with ourselves, especially when we're feeling those highs. Because I think we tend to be motivated to do that work when we're feeling low.

When we're like, oh, we gotta work on this. But both sides need to coexist. Like one is not gonna be without the other.

Right. I mean, not in my realm, not in like, I am not gonna live the joy without the sadness at some point. There's whatever it is. And I think there's a tendency when we're feeling the weight of those less attractive emotions to really pull someone out or to really pull ourselves out. It's like, oh, this feels uncomfortable.

Get me outta here. But I think there's stuff to be gained in those places too. We're just, it's just uncomfortable. right? And like, will you sit in the darkness with me, or are you gonna only wanna be with me when I'm that, like in my, you know, emotional, happy cocktail, everything going on in my body, right?

Because it's a big thing in our society as well, right? We're taught like, oh gosh, she's angry, she's upset. Let's give that person some space. Or like, let's validate that.

[00:27:37] Rosalyn: So are, are,

Are you referring now to our relationship with our others and our, colleagues when we talk about when you're talking about those lows and sitting with somebody else I guess I'm imagining like, oh, we're talking about like ourselves and I'm sitting with myself in the darkness.

But what about the other people in our lives and how do we welcome them into that space I haven't been on the road like I did in the past, but I remember when I was really going for it with these, with long tours and you, you come back and you're, you know, significant other or your family or your good friends, Are so excited to see you.

They're so excited that you're back and they just wanna hang out and like to be together. Yeah. You're here. And you're like, whoa, I've been with other people for the last 50 days straight and I need to like,

Live in my deep dark hole where I binge all the shows I missed and, or do whatever, I gotta do to be in that depression all.

But I think that can be really hard for the other people in your lives who are so excited to just have you back and kind of expect, I think sometimes if somebody's away they come back and they expect them to just be back,

boom, Boom, you're back. Now you're back here.

Great. Here we go. And yeah, so I like, I guess I'm just. Wondering you know, how can we communicate, how can we like, kind of bridge that communication gap if that happens when we do need to take that space to kind of

[00:28:54] Cindy: Yeah. Well, I think ultimately what we're talking about, I guess, would be boundaries, right? Because. , I think it's counterintuitive for us to do. We're wired for connections and these are our partners and families people that we miss. So if, for you, when you come home from a tour, you're depleted, you wanna sit in that dark hole and, whatever your process is I think that this is that balancing act, this whole tight rope of like, okay, are you meeting the needs of yourself right now?

Or are you meeting the needs of others? And of course, when you're in relationships, there's a little bit of both that you want to do, but at what costs, right? So like, for some people they come home from tour and they may wanna be like in the arms of that person and like really close and connected.

Whereas some people, their process might be more that solitaire, really individual. Internal on your own. So, that whole checking in with yourself, we talk about consent, right? We talk about consent and giving yourself permission, with whatever it is you're doing, checking in with yourself and being like, okay, am I okay here?

Do I still wanna do this? Give yourself permission to change your mind. Give yourself permission to like, check in with where you're at and honor yourself. Right? And I think that's a part where especially in the music scene, like if we're honoring our needs and honoring ourselves, it might come at the loss of these opportunities and there's that balancing act.

Same with when you're coming home and if you wanna honor your needs, but if it's gonna hurt your partner or your family. And having those hard conversations with people, right, it's hard to set boundaries with people.

It's really, and it's even harder to uphold them if they're being violated. Right? We wanna just like, here's a boundary I'm gonna set, but while somebody doesn't quite understand it or they, that boundary doesn't serve them, it serves you. it's that real balancing act and you're in a field where you're always giving, you're giving parts of yourself even when there's nothing left, right?

You're on tour, you're being nice to, ideally you're being nice to the sound person. You're being nice to the person behind the bar. You're always like, that schmoozing part of our roles, that's important because these are people who are invested in the show.

They're invested in what you're doing. They're receiving you. . But if you are like on tour and you're PMS-ing and like you booked this show a year ago, you weren't feeling like you're feeling that day. And you don't get to just say like, I'm not really feeling up for it. . Right. And Covid has given us permission now to cancel a show when we're sick. right? Like, I mean I'm sure every musician has a story, but I remember Saskatoon vomiting in the alleyway minutes before. I was like singing into that mic and thinking, that is wrong. Like if only they knew and there was no other option in my mind. The show must go on right.

[00:31:56] Rosalyn: I can think of so many shows that I played while incredibly sick and only maybe one or two that I've ever canceled. Cuz I was like, I

[00:32:06] Cindy: Yeah. Like I remember the Buckleys on stage. I was just like, I'm just bringing the Buckleys right on stage, and no one thought that was weird. Like what?

[00:32:16] Rosalyn: Isn't that kind of an interesting gift to have now,

you know, that I hope we can keep and hold onto, and I hope that as artists we can hold onto that and say, okay, great. The world didn't, and because I canceled a gig, people understand, I hope that audiences continue to be forgiving and understanding like that.

But also venues I remember the only time I ever, I canceled a gig because of mental health. I was on a two months tour and this was like my, this is my lowest of the low, my peak, like, moment as an artist, but like just broke down. It was like, I think I cried for like 24 hours straight, could not get out of it and I couldn't get out of this emotional panic attack mode.

And had to cancel a gig. It was Amsterdam, I can't remember where in Amsterdam, but it was like this isn't gonna happen. I can't get out of it. Canceled one gig and continued on the rest of the tour, without any professional hob whatsoever. Cuz that was the time. but I remember canceling that gig and, just being told like, you'll never, ever play here again don't ever contact us.

You

[00:33:17] Cindy: we will punish you forever for your humanness. How dare you be human

Like how insane, right?

[00:33:26] Rosalyn: How insane. And like, the guilt that I felt. For, not performing in this pub in Amsterdam. Like,

I carried that with me for so long of like, oh, I ruined this opportunity for my band to ever perform here.

And

[00:33:40] Cindy: and there's the power dynamic, right? Here's the power dynamic of somebody being like, I will punish you. I will use this power that I have over you because you had this opportunity and now you'll never, you know, like that's insane. And it's like, what's amazing about uh, what's happening now and Sean Mendez, like you were saying, like.

What he's doing and what he did is he modeled it. You know, We need people to model it so that we are giving every person that does kind of set that limit for themselves and they're like, I can't go on. You're modeling it and you're giving other artists permission to call it quit, because at what cost are you gonna keep going on that tour?

And it impacts a lot of people, right? Especially when you're getting at higher levels of success and you have a whole team, right?

[00:34:30] Rosalyn: Yeah. Yeah. And that's a huge amount of pressure, on any part of that team too. If you need to take that break you don't wanna let down your colleagues,

right?

[00:34:39] Cindy: and you're like, and your agent and like all the people on your end and then there's all the people receiving you on that end, right? So it's a lot of pressure and I think that the fact that artists are showing their humanness now is so vital. Like this idea that we have that, I think people feel.

Closer to artists when they see also, I mean, I'm sure some people are, having opposite reactions because we live in a world where it's this, that, and everything in between. So it's not gonna be like everyone applauding going, yay, good for you, for caring for your needs. But the reality is like, what happens if you don't?

No more tours at all, or whatever. Like, it's insane to me that there would be that kind of pressure or expectation on a person. And this is where there's like, the objectification happens of an artist because it's like, it's no longer a person, it's a product, it's a business. And this is where it's like, well, where do you separate the person in the, art or the, object?

Right? And at what point is it this or that? there's always a person there. It's never just the product. Right. So It's really hard to navigate as an artist, and that's why I think the longevity, ensuring you have a team that is supportive, ensuring you're checking in with yourself, even with the highs, when those highs are happening, kind of like keeping it in check.

Like what are the ways that you can really be in optimal health, emotionally, mentally, all of that. And what's amazing as artists is that in doing this kind of work, this group processing work with artists is that people are so willing to be vulnerable, so willing to go into those conversations of discomfort.

Like in that room at F M O, we did not have to pull any teeth. Like everyone was just so beautifully generous and open and vulnerable, like people cried. People like the sharings were so deep right away. . And that's the beauty of working with artists is that there's already this sense like crack open that's just willing to go into those places, right?

Which is really brave and courageous compared to other groups that I've led, you don't go there right away with everyone. But with artists, it was just immediate. so Jordan O'Connor was co-facilitating those groups with me and like it's just a guidance.

We don't do the work. It's just group processing. That's the part that allows for those creative insights, those reflections to take place. And the group supports each other. And then you see these intense reactions if somebody says something triggering, and there were moments where there was some really triggering things that were said based on ignorance or lack of understanding.

And, that's important too because those are opportunities, conflict presents itself. And if examined with respect then there's growth, right? So it's always such a beautiful opportunity, but we're not always given that safe chance or that safe space to make those mistakes that lead to growth.

And how amazing that we had that.

[00:37:51] Rosalyn: Yeah. It's encouraging that folks are entering into these conversations and, and being so generous in the way that they have. And my hope is that by continuing to have these forums and, as the talks about mental health and, physical health and, that whole health and wellness space is kind of proliferated and more out there that folks are checking in with themselves before they hit that breaking point, and that if folks can feel like they're able to share and get help or, or whatever needs to happen maybe it'll help to mitigate some of the stress and some of the mental and physical stress before, they reach that kind of breaking point, right.

[00:38:30] Cindy: We all have tools, like we've all made it here so far, right? So it's just trying to really develop our coping skills that are healthy coping skills. Like we're not just suppressing or we're not just powering through and like, oh, we'll deal with that 10 years from now, or whatever. like, so developing.

or connecting, identifying with which skills do I have and which ones do I wanna build? And again, that's so different for every person, like finding what works for you so that when you start to feel yourself going into that reactive state, you're able to regulate, you know, and they're teaching that in schools now.

So I'm so, like, my daughter came home and with like the five star breathing and I was just like, great. They're teaching that . So like, I think it's so important and we all need to know how to regulate. Cuz when we, then start to power through, when we're in a reactive state first of all, that's just not a good place to be staying.

Like we don't wanna stay there too long at that. That's detrimental to our health. Right.

[00:39:37] Rosalyn: And earlier in the conversation we were chatting about comparing ourselves to others or kind of that mode that we get into. And it kind of sounded like some, like C B T Cognitive behavioral, the, I'm not the therapist here, I shouldn't be saying this . But in the bit of work I've, I've done in that space. And when I say work, I mean work done to me. Is that how you call it? I

[00:39:56] Cindy: I mean, it's collaborative, right? So for sure it's, you're part of the work. You're the one, it's your journey.

[00:40:03] Rosalyn: but it reminds me of that, like maybe that's like a tool.

That people can use when you have these thoughts that, that come in, that might be like an instant, like negative or

comparative Thought and ways to kind of, soften some of those thoughts as they come

[00:40:17] Cindy: Yeah. Or challenge them, right? So, yeah, like C B T does a lot of that, like looking at the core beliefs, the core values, and almost like doing detective work on the thoughts that come in and how accurate are these negative, like that negative self talk. Right? And then like different modalities, like that would be like a top down approach where you're really going into the brain changing the thinking patterns, and then it sends a message to the body that, okay, we're good, we're fine.

We don't need to get into this reaction. And some people would rather like a bottom up approach where you're, you're using the body to send the message to the mind. So like, if you're using breath or using like, oh, what's happening in my body tuning in. , and it doesn't matter which way you enter that cycle, like where you're breaking it, it's the body that informs the mind, the mind informs the body, right.

It's cyclical. So whichever way, and this is why it's so unique, the modalities and depending on what's going on with the person and like, I think when we see somebody with like a broken arm, it's so easy. like, oh, there's the arm. We know what to do with it. Right? Whereas I think with mental health stuff, because it's not tangible, it's so much easier for us to just like turn away from it You know? It's so easy to hide these parts of ourselves that are broken or suffer. I don't, sorry, not broken. I don't ever feel like we're broken. I feel like our bodies do things to protect us and in the moment that serves us, maybe however we continue to use these skills eventually are no longer serving us.

And that's where the habitual stuff happens, right? So if as a child it was safer for you to, avoid conflict, if as a child that's what you had to do, and you're still doing that as an adult, so this is where it's like, okay, well what can we look at in our patterns and our habitual patterns that are like embedded in our, in our ways?

And that's why I said earlier, like, the authentically living really happens when we start to break the habitual ways of thinking of being right. That's where that free flow of who you are gets to come through as opposed to the habitual person just going through the motions, right?

[00:42:30] Rosalyn: we've identified some tools

That people can use. What? Where can people go if they do need to reach out to somebody or need to make a connection with somebody or maybe are feeling like they've been in a crisis. Where do you have some resources or, or suggestions where people can, go?

[00:42:46] Cindy: Yeah. I mean, depending on, there's so many organizations that exist. So depending on what's going on, like if we're dealing with a crisis, then there's so many organizations, there's reaching out to the CAM-H’s in your area and then, it's so regional and depending on what's going on.

But I really feel that and we can maybe like have a list of resources that we can put on websites and stuff like that.

[00:43:10] Rosalyn: Yeah, we can put that in the show notes.

[00:43:12] Cindy: I mean health lines, if it's a matter of just talking to someone, because I think it's identifying when it is that you feel the best? Like take a moment to think like, when did I feel like the best version of myself?

And then explore that. What about that moment made me feel so real and authentic and at ease and comfortable? Were you talking to a friend? Were you walking in nature? Were you making a puzzle? so identifying when do you feel the most at ease, the most like yourself and why, what was happening in that moment?

And that gives you an indication of some of the things that allow you to regulate, right? So maybe it's talking to your mom. Maybe it's petting your dog. Maybe it's being in nature. So like we have resources. It's just identifying those moments. and that's why it's like, checking in with ourselves when we feel great.

Oh, okay, I feel awesome right now. Okay, well what's going on? Like, let's savor that in and make observations. Where am I? and just being curious. I think if we amplify that dialogue within ourselves, we can then find out so much more. Identify, how do you know what you need?

If you don't take the time to identify those needs, if you don't take the time to go, oh, okay, how am I feeling? And what? Why or what, like in order to know where we wanna go, we should figure out where we are at this moment. So I think if people are on tour and yes, like I feel like for me, I mean I, I've done a lot of therapy and it's really amazing to have someone you can do that individual work with.

Jordan and I are starting a firebrand therapy and firebrand is all about deconstructing these external factors that kind of come into the way of the true essence. So we're gonna be doing groups and that kind of thing. So definitely check in for that. But yeah, I think having that team, you know, having those friends that you know, you can count on.

I always encourage people to have a self-care buddy, have a self-care partner. If you, even in your workplace, like every month, assign people so that. Just having somebody sending you silly emojis might kind of go, oh yeah. Like I should do something for myself. and if having a professional, guide you through some stuff, then absolutely.

Like, I obviously believe in the worth of doing that. Of course. and having the right person though, right. I think it's important the same way we end up with the right relationships with the right people. I'm finding the right therapist, like somebody who really gets you or you feel like, oh yeah, okay, I'm seeing, I heard I understood.

It's not just somebody imposing their modalities because therapists work with so many different tools. Like are they just bringing a formula or are they hearing me seeing me and creating a brand new path forward with me? Cuz that's what you want, right? You want somebody that's like, it's new every time.

It's so unique. But resources, there's so many apps too. There's one that's free that it's called mind shift. Just having An app that sends you reminders or affirmations.

Some people hate affirmations, some people love them. Right? It's so unique to the person and some things feel really woowoo for someone where I'm like, I don't even the word mindfulness, right? They're like, oh gosh. Like, because it's so, became trendy or breathing or awareness. Like language.

Yeah. Breathing is so trendy. love that.

[00:46:46] Rosalyn: And where can people go to find out more about you and the work that you're doing?

[00:46:49] Cindy: I mean, my music website is still cindy duar.com, but in the next few weeks I'm gonna launch my cindy duar.ca, so that'll be more like the therapy and that, and also in the process with firebrand.com. That'll be with Jordan O'Connor.

[00:47:04] Rosalyn: Fantastic. And we'll link to all of that as well, if you wanna find out more about Cindy and the incredible work that she does, and hopefully we'll see you again at the next

[00:47:12] Cindy: I hope so. I'd love to be there. Yes, please.

[00:47:16] Rosalyn: Thank you so much, Cindy. It was so nice to talk to you.

[00:47:18] Cindy: Yeah. Thanks. So nice to talk with you as well.